OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Points deduction...not discussion...sorry.

[Manofpride]

Nothing you or anyone else says can disguise the fact that 63% of the electorate did not vote for Brexit .

Who's fault is that? 67% of the population didn’t vote Remain!!!!. More Brexiteers were interested in the vote than remainers, that's why the Brexiteers won the vote, end of!

[MadAmster]

1. Nothing you or anyone else says can disguise the fact that 63% of the electorate did not vote for Brexit which was in any case only ever advisory. So...the ‘advice’ was that 37% of the electorate wanted to withdraw from the EU...that is a ‘minority’ whichever way you look at it so...yes...it is a FACT.

2. You’re probably right, both sides lied...but the two biggest lies that probably led to the most support were the £350m to the NHS ‘battlebus’ one and the ‘these negotiations are going to be easy’ one. Was the electorate misled...YES.

3. Leaving the tax avoidance issue to one side for a moment...shouldn’t we assess whether electoral law was broken by the ‘victors’ before ploughing on regardless? Even in the all too often corrupt world of football if a team was found guilty of fielding ineligible players there would be a rematch or a points discussion.

4. Finally...are you seriously suggesting that we shouldn’t do what is right for the country because the far right and the more extreme Brexiteers will riot if they don’t get their way? Doesn’t sound like you ‘Amster...that really would be giving in to the lowest common denominator of mob mentality.

1. Yes 63% didn't vote Leave. Conversely 67% didn't vote remain. FACT

2. I always saw the NHS figure as no more than a "could be" rather than a promise. IMO the negotiations could have been easy if the government had come up with a strategy within 6 months of the vote and then gone for it rather than waiting till the last minute before botching together a plan to take us out whilst leaving us in. Despite that, I agree, the electorate were misled...... by both sides.

3. Electoral Law should be looked into and the exceeding of budgets should also be investigated. Again, with a definite time frame known for the past 2 years there should have been far more urgency placed on it.

4. Not suggesting that at all. My thoughts are that May has spent the past 2 years telling the UK populace over and over again that Freedom of movement will stop and that the UK would NOT be in any kind of Customs Union. Under the May agreement there WILL be freedom of movement and there will be a Customs Union and the UK will adhere to EU laws both old and new but will have no say in those Laws. It hurts me to say it but that is what will trigger a summer and maybe longer of extreme civil unrest. Not for it but I believe it will happen. I don't have the same fears in the event of a no deal exit from the EU.

[ramAnag]

1. Yes 63% didn't vote Leave. Conversely 67% didn't vote remain. FACT

2. I always saw the NHS figure as no more than a "could be" rather than a promise. IMO the negotiations could have been easy if the government had come up with a strategy within 6 months of the vote and then gone for it rather than waiting till the last minute before botching together a plan to take us out whilst leaving us in. Despite that, I agree, the electorate were misled...... by both sides.

3. Electoral Law should be looked into and the exceeding of budgets should also be investigated. Again, with a definite time frame known for the past 2 years there should have been far more urgency placed on it.

4. Not suggesting that at all. My thoughts are that May has spent the past 2 years telling the UK populace over and over again that Freedom of movement will stop and that the UK would NOT be in any kind of Customs Union. Under the May agreement there WILL be freedom of movement and there will be a Customs Union and the UK will adhere to EU laws both old and new but will have no say in those Laws. It hurts me to say it but that is what will trigger a summer and maybe longer of extreme civil unrest. Not for it but I believe it will happen. I don't have the same fears in the event of a no deal exit from the EU.

1. You’re right, but we should never regard 37% as ‘the Will of the People’...that’s just nonsense.

2. Maybe it’s because you live in Holland but there was nothing ‘could be’ about the daily appearance on TV of the sign emblazoned on the side of Boris’ ‘battle bus’.

3. Entirely agree...so why are we beating ourselves up by following the ‘advice’ of a minority that was probably achieved by breaking the rules especially now the damaging likely outcome has become so much more evident?

4. So what you are really concluding is that the likely behaviour of ‘disappointed’ Brexiteers will be a whole lot less acceptable and a great deal more intimidating than that of equally disgruntled ‘Remainers’. I’m inclined to agree. All the evidence so far would appear to suggest you are right but I repeat...giving in to the mob rule threatened by ‘right wingers’ should not, imo, be an option or even a consideration.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I'm not sure on that last point MA. If it's hard Brexit I can see rA protesting outside parliament, still rattling on about his 63% like anyone cares!! And you realise he has a massive stash of ex WW2 conventional weapons secreted in a bunker in Buxton, so that could get bloody.

Seriously though, someone is going to be seriously pissed off one way or other:

"Remain" will probably upset a majority, who are a vocal group: the 37% plus those who rightly believe rejecting a democratically proper decision is wrong;

"Hard Brexit" will also probably upset a majority, as some people (possibly including me) want neither remain nor hard brexit;

"May Deal" in the true spirit of compromise will upset everyone as it takes the unacceptable parts of either extremes' agendae and neatly includes all of them.

So riots in the streets come what "may". I think a month in New Zealand is called for, whose farmers must be creaming their jeans at recovering a market lost over 40 years ago

[ramAnag]

Who's fault is that? 67% of the population didn’t vote Remain!!!!. More Brexiteers were interested in the vote than remainers, that's why the Brexiteers won the vote, end of!

The last two and a half years of rancorous debate would appear to suggest that again you are wrong...certainly not been a case of ‘end of!’ however much you’d like it to be.

[MadAmster]

1. You’re right, but we should never regard 37% as ‘the Will of the People’...that’s just nonsense.

2. Maybe it’s because you live in Holland but there was nothing ‘could be’ about the daily appearance on TV of the sign emblazoned on the side of Boris’ ‘battle bus’.

3. Entirely agree...so why are we beating ourselves up by following the ‘advice’ of a minority that was probably achieved by breaking the rules especially now the damaging likely outcome has become so much more evident?

4. So what you are really concluding is that the likely behaviour of ‘disappointed’ Brexiteers will be a whole lot less acceptable and a great deal more intimidating than that of equally disgruntled ‘Remainers’. I’m inclined to agree. All the evidence so far would appear to suggest you are right but I repeat...giving in to the mob rule threatened by ‘right wingers’ should not, imo, be an option or even a consideration.

1. Considering the monumental impact of the referendum, the "rules of engagement" should have been different. 70% turnout for the vote to be valid and that happened. 60% or 66% of the votes needed for a "win" for either side.

2. Maybe it is just me looking cynically at it. I always saw it as an example of what could happen, not what would happen. The amount on the bus accurately depicts the UK's weekly payments to the EU. That is true. However, they forgot to factor in (on purpose) that almost half of that comes back in the form of the rebate Maggie negotiated and grants and subsidies to various UK regions.

3. We seem on the same page there

4. Idem ditto

I still hate the EU and all it stands for with a vengance and its downfall woulf please me greatly. Get back to free trade and working together without all this NWO-like rush towards a US of E that will never work. The former Eastern Bloc countries are turning their backs on things they don't want/like such as mass African immigration. Immigration that is only necessary if you are in the 1% and we are not.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I still hate the EU and all it stands for with a vengance and its downfall woulf please me greatly. Get back to free trade and working together without all this NWO-like rush towards a US of E that will never work. The former Eastern Bloc countries are turning their backs on things they don't want/like such as mass African immigration. Immigration that is only necessary if you are in the 1% and we are not.

Interestingly high levels of eastern european immigration from Africa may be because all the eastern european workforce are working in western europe, including UK. Each scenario an attempt at betterment of wages to remit back to place of origin.

Naturally "we" (as in the brexiteers) dont want the easyern european immigrants doing the jobs in this country; equally naturally Romania, Poland, Bulgaria etc equivalents dont want African immigrants doing the job in their country.

Simple solution, we can have all the Africans and leave Eastern Europe alone. Cut out the middle man. That should please those brexiteers who profess racist views against eastern european labour in this country.

Incidentally, where you use "we" in your cited paragraph, do you mean the British or the Cloggies?

[ramAnag]

1. Considering the monumental impact of the referendum, the "rules of engagement" should have been different. 70% turnout for the vote to be valid and that happened. 60% or 66% of the votes needed for a "win" for either side.

2. Maybe it is just me looking cynically at it. I always saw it as an example of what could happen, not what would happen. The amount on the bus accurately depicts the UK's weekly payments to the EU. That is true. However, they forgot to factor in (on purpose) that almost half of that comes back in the form of the rebate Maggie negotiated and grants and subsidies to various UK regions.

3. We seem on the same page there

4. Idem ditto

I still hate the EU and all it stands for with a vengance and its downfall woulf please me greatly. Get back to free trade and working together without all this NWO-like rush towards a US of E that will never work. The former Eastern Bloc countries are turning their backs on things they don't want/like such as mass African immigration. Immigration that is only necessary if you are in the 1% and we are not.

Well we’re almost there ‘Amster. I’d have settled for a number equivalent to at least 51% of the electorate in a two horse race but I take your point. It would of course still have been devisive but at least there would have been some credibility and logic to the claim...’the People have spoken’.
I’m aware, as GP points out in his own inimitable way, that the 37/63% point is extremely repetitive and tiresome. Unfortunately it has never been satisfactorily addressed and thus it remains relevant.

You seem to agree that the bus, and other ‘attractions’, were misleading and we are clearly in agreement on 3&4.

Nice to know that despite our minor differences on this issue the two of us can reach agreement without any of the open hostility currently on display from the more fervent Brexiteers.

[Andy_Faber]

'the likely behaviour of ‘disappointed’ Brexiteers will be a whole lot less acceptable and a great deal more intimidating than that of equally disgruntled ‘Remainers’.
I'm not going to condone the actions of those tw*ts calling Anna Soubrey a N*** or their subsequent intimidating behaviour (I hope they get locked up for it) but the actions Remainers have ALREADY indulged in are pretty distasteful, albeit more insidious/subtle than yawping across a fence - prime example is tv comedians/comedy shows who appear to have been given cart blanche to 'Leave bash'. Its not intimidating per se but it is something else thats recently become an equal in they eyes of the law, attempted coercive control.

[ramAnag]

'the likely behaviour of ‘disappointed’ Brexiteers will be a whole lot less acceptable and a great deal more intimidating than that of equally disgruntled ‘Remainers’.
I'm not going to condone the actions of those tw*ts calling Anna Soubrey a N*** or their subsequent intimidating behaviour (I hope they get locked up for it) but the actions Remainers have ALREADY indulged in are pretty distasteful, albeit more insidious/subtle than yawping across a fence - prime example is tv comedians/comedy shows who appear to have been given cart blanche to 'Leave bash'. Its not intimidating per se but it is something else thats recently become an equal in they eyes of the law, attempted coercive control.

I’m sorry Andy but that’s bollux and really not worthy of you. The biggest crimes perpetrated by some Leavers amount to being patronising, arrogant, some degree of name calling and a graffiti attack of one of Rees-Mogg’s homes. The greatest crimes perpetrated by the far right element of the Brexiteers includes the murder of a ‘Remain’ supporting Labour MP, death threats sent to a prominent ‘Remain’ supporter to the extent that she became afraid to go out, the harassment, abuse and attempted intimidation of a ‘Remain’ supporting Tory MP and the physical and verbal harassment of entirely innocent members of the immigrant community in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum.
The two simply do not compare and we cannot allow the threat of such behaviour to lead our country along the path to mob rule.

[MadAmster]

Nice to know that despite our minor differences on this issue the two of us can reach agreement without any of the open hostility currently on display from the more fervent Brexiteers.

OMG - I appear to have become sensible..................... when did that happen?

[Andy_Faber]

I’m sorry Andy but that’s bollux and really not worthy of you. The biggest crimes perpetrated by some Leavers amount to being patronising, arrogant, some degree of name calling and a graffiti attack of one of Rees-Mogg’s homes. The greatest crimes perpetrated by the far right element of the Brexiteers includes the murder of a ‘Remain’ supporting Labour MP, death threats sent to a prominent ‘Remain’ supporter to the extent that she became afraid to go out, the harassment, abuse and attempted intimidation of a ‘Remain’ supporting Tory MP and the physical and verbal harassment of entirely innocent members of the immigrant community in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum.
The two simply do not compare and we cannot allow the threat of such behaviour to lead our country along the path to mob rule.

As usual we'll have to agree to differ, and I'm not remotely excusing the behaviour of those you refer to as 'far right', mostly idiots and in some cases much worse than that.

[ramAnag]

As usual we'll have to agree to differ, and I'm not remotely excusing the behaviour of those you refer to as 'far right', mostly idiots and in some cases much worse than that.

...which of course you have every right to do...but it’s becoming increasingly difficult for anyone to defend the more extreme Brexiteer behaviour and arrogance or stubbornness will always be less of a ‘sin’ than bullying and intimidation, or worse.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Its interesting to see the differences emerging as D day draws near.

The Brexiteers are characterised as threatening, bullying and intimidatory, which would appear, in fairness, to be true of a small minority of that clan. It does not in my mind apply to the entire corps of brexit supporting individuals, most of whom have their own well thought out logical reasons for choosing separation from europe. Its just cheap point scoring.

One might say its typical of the mealy mouthed wimpish liberal supporting remainers to exaggerate the actions of this minority and to try to pin this characteristic on anyone disagreeing with their own (probably equally well rationalised in their mind) opinion. But this would be to act in the same manner as them, and to try to win points based on the characteristic of minority of their supporters.

Both sides think they are right, both sides are unlikely to change their minds, and both sides will be unhappy with any compromise. But FFS stop the point scoring and bickering and pull together to try to find a solution to the insoluble!

37% think one thing, 33% think another and 30% seemingly don't give a flying **** - its this 30% that have created all this turmoil, since, in effect, both sides are claiming the same 30% to their own. So the 37 and the 33 muckrake and throw the raked up mud at each other for what reason? Calling someone a bully or stubborn will not change their minds, it wont achieve anything. Thinking one side is worse than the other is pointless - you will always see the "side that you support" as being innocent and the other side as guilty of all the sins in the debate. Brexit has become as tribal as football. Its frankly pathetic polarised arguments which become ever more polarised with constant repetition.

The constant repetition of the "we won the majority of the (popular) vote" vs "more people didn't vote to leave than did" has been a massive distraction iin the whole issue. Polarised views here demonstrably will never change, and pointless arguments about cheating, lying and questioning the legality/validity/appropriateness of the outcome is simply childish. The playground is no place for this debate - although perversely its the future of those currently in the playground that will be most impacted.

I do not see how this can be resolved, but instead of BvR, lets look to the real villains of the piece - the 30% abstainers. By and large they have been responsible for creating wiggle room post referendum. They should be shot (in violent, naughy Brexiteer terms), or given a stern talking to and sent for counselling (in wimpy, liberal Remainer terms) but this is where responsibility lies for this almighty cock up. if we ever have a referendum again, for pity's sake make voting compulsory under pain of being lectured by rA !!