OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Wrong on so many levels.. No real point in going round in circles.
Keep tearing this country apart, I hope you get some satisfaction from it. You will be able to look in the mirror and say ‘I did that’.. Bravo..

So easy to say...’wrong on so many levels’ but without ever being specific.

Maybe what you really mean is...’I disagree’...but if telling me I’m tearing the country apart makes you feel better then so be it.

At sometime in the future I hope I’ll be able to say...’I stood up for what I believed in and remained respectful of all but the most extreme and bigoted’. You clearly disagree, but you’re right...we’re going round in circles...not much point in continuing.

Enjoy your trip.

[swaledale]

The issue remains alive due to people like you not accepting a democratic vote (cue the 'it's was not a majority' line). It remains alive as our elected politicians have failed to deliver what they promised in the interest of their own self preservation.
It remains alive due to lies (on both sides), corrupting the process.
It remains alive as it seems only Remainers knew what Brexit looked like and the rest of us are stupid.
It still remains alive as it seems a large part of the Leave vote have died now and it seems that every 15/16 year old who could not vote last time, will vote Remain.
It remains alive as we had a Remainer negotiating it and now we are told that is what Brexit looks like. Nope !! What else would happen when weak people who do not believe in it negotiate it. Now Remainers have destroyed democracy in the UK. They will blame the leavers but in essence the leave vote has been pretty quiet through this debacle. It is taboo in social arenas or in the work place to be a leaver. You will be scorned but the vocal minority.
It remains alive as Corbyn is a totally inept opposition leader. How does an opposition leader still remain less popular that the most unpopular PM ever? It remains alive as our political elite are inept should all step down with heads hung in shame.
Freedom of speech has now become a negative thing. A spiteful thing. Social Media has become a negative platform and now we have millions of social commentators (experts) telling us what to think and do. And it is to everyones shame that these people (influencers) are listened to. They are normally on the left of politics..
Now politics is screaming leftists, or green haired uni students throwing milkshakes. Great..
My angry days were, I thought, well behind me. 70s and 80s and mainly it was around a football match. I am pissed with this country now big time.
Still what do I know, I am a nearly 60 year old white hetro***ual male leaver. Lowest of the low, or so I am told. Our vote should be ignored as should our experiences.

If you voted leave, then you voted to destroy this country, simples!

[Manofpride]

If you voted leave, then you voted to destroy this country, simples!

Says you and the minority of the voters!

[ramAnag]

Says you and the minority of the voters!

You really must check your definition of minority and majority MoP.

[mistaram]

You really must check your definition of minority and majority MoP.

The Free Dictionary
Majority. The amount by which the greater number of votes cast as in an election ,exceeds the total number of the remaining votes simple!

[ramAnag]

The Free Dictionary
Majority. The amount by which the greater number of votes cast as in an election ,exceeds the total number of the remaining votes simple!

The Collins Dictionary...majority...meaning a number which is more than half of the whole...minority...meaning a number which is less than half of the whole.

Whether you’re judging the 2016 Referendum, the recent local council elections, the EU elections or the Peterborough by-election at no time can Brexiteers claim to have the support of more than half of the electorate and in the case of the last three no where near half of those who actually bothered to vote.

[Manofpride]

Out of the whole lot of people who voted more than half voted to leave "Majority" That leaves the remainers the minority!
Verdict:- Mista was correct!

[ramAnag]

Out of the whole lot of people who voted more than half voted to leave "Majority" That leaves the remainers the minority!
Verdict:- Mista was correct!

In an advisory and binary choice referendum, he is of course right, but the fact remains that only between a third and some where around 37% of the electorate have ever supported Brexit and that is always going to be a minority...no matter how vociferous.

If Mr. Farage wants a say in future policy might I suggest that, rather than creating photo opportunities by handing in a silly letter at Downing Street, he actually wins a Parliamentary seat or two. That is how Parliamentary Democracy works.

[Geoff Parkstone]

In an advisory and binary choice referendum, he is of course right, but the fact remains that only between a third and some where around 37% of the electorate have ever supported Brexit and that is always going to be a minority...no matter how vociferous.

If Mr. Farage wants a say in future policy might I suggest that, rather than creating photo opportunities by handing in a silly letter at Downing Street, he actually wins a Parliamentary seat or two. That is how Parliamentary Democracy works.

A parliamentary seat or two in order to have a say in anything? What, like the Libdems have at the moment yet have no real say in anything - or maybe he can hope to strike lucky and win 10 like the DUP and be able to block anything happening through luck and circumstance. Maybe this is model for future politics - win enough seats to hold the balance and get paid billions in bribes to vote one way or the other?

For anyone to have any say they need to have the balance in a hung parliament, as opposed to a seat or two, and that is down to sheer luck. Now if we had a PR system, meaning parliament would be perpetually hung, then he could win a lot at the moment, but we dont. Sometimes I think sadly as I think that is more representative of the country as a whole, but FPTP at least allows for a workable government structure- but that will always be a minority in terms of the %age of the electorate that voted for it.

We can talk about how to define majority or minority, but I have to wonder if we have ever had a real majority (eg of the electorate) in power since 1945 and the end of the Government of National Unity. Before then, almost certainly not if only because the lasses weren't allowed to vote. That decision was where it all started to go wrong

[ramAnag]

Figure of speech, Parky...and anyway...a Parliamentary ‘seat or two’ has always seemed a bit beyond nasty ‘voice of the people’ Nigel hasn’t it?

[MadAmster]

I can think of no elections in a democratic country where votes not cast are added to those received by any of those on the ballot paper. Right and proper IMO. That is why I frequently quote that 67% didn't vote remain when I see people posting the 63% didn't vote leave claim.

Both statements are true but, in UK politics, votes not cast, just as with blank or spoiled ballot papers, simply do not count. Never have and never will.

I hope nobody takes this personally as it is not intended to be so. Merely an affirmation of how UK voting works.

[Manofpride]

I can think of no elections in a democratic country where votes not cast are added to those received by any of those on the ballot paper. Right and proper IMO. That is why I frequently quote that 67% didn't vote remain when I see people posting the 63% didn't vote leave claim.

Both statements are true but, in UK politics, votes not cast, just as with blank or spoiled ballot papers, simply do not count. Never have and never will.

I hope nobody takes this personally as it is not intended to be so. Merely an affirmation of how UK voting works.

I can't see remainer's agreeing to that MA, even though what you say is right!

[ramAnag]

I can think of no elections in a democratic country where votes not cast are added to those received by any of those on the ballot paper. Right and proper IMO. That is why I frequently quote that 67% didn't vote remain when I see people posting the 63% didn't vote leave claim.

Both statements are true but, in UK politics, votes not cast, just as with blank or spoiled ballot papers, simply do not count. Never have and never will.

I hope nobody takes this personally as it is not intended to be so. Merely an affirmation of how UK voting works.

You’re absolutely right ‘Amster in every respect, but - and we are going round in circles yet again - let’s also not forget that you can’t compare our usual elections with a binary choice referendum, i.e. when there are only two choices for a ‘side’ to say they represent a ‘majority’ or the ‘will of the people’ they surely have to have a vote equivalent to more than 50% of the electorate.

Additionally, if such a referendum is meant to set policy in stone and not be merely ‘advisory’ then we must be totally clear about that beforehand and be voting on what is true, not on a tissue of lies, and not at a time (late June) when many of the electorate are taking advantage of out of season (pre school holiday rates) holidays and many of the student body are effectively disenfranchised.

In short...I don’t like referenda, because I don’t believe the vast majority of people are equipped to make such complex decisions. Having said that, perhaps the only way out of the current impasse is a second referendum with more attention to the facts rather than the lies and exaggerations...but guess which side doesn’t want that.

[Geoff Parkstone]

RamAnag says:

You’re absolutely right ‘Amster in every respect, but - and we are going round in circles yet again - let’s also not forget that you can’t compare our usual elections with a binary choice referendum, i.e. when there are only two choices for a ‘side’ to say they represent a ‘majority’ or the ‘will of the people’ they surely have to have a vote equivalent to more than 50% of the electorate.

Actually why cant you compare? With the exception of a few constituency that go to LibDems, virtually all constituency general elections are in fact pretty binary, Con v lab, and in many of those cases are in fact unitary - a pig with a blue rosette would win my constituency every time. Its even getting that way in Scotland where Labour has currently been wiped out by SNP and Northern Ireland where politics are more religious based. I'd guess there's only a handful of places where more than two people have a legitimate chance of ever winning a seat

Additionally, if such a referendum is meant to set policy in stone and not be merely ‘advisory’ then we must be totally clear about that beforehand and be voting on what is true, not on a tissue of lies, and not at a time (late June) when many of the electorate are taking advantage of out of season (pre school holiday rates) holidays and many of the student body are effectively disenfranchised.


My impression was that pre referendum there was no perception that the referendum WAS advisory, its only after the result was known that the losers threw this stone into the puddle of clarity. I'm also unsure why a second referendum would not be corrupted by a different pack of lies and as for students being disenfranchised, how do you make that out? is it because the poor dears were busy with exams? How long does it take to vote, and why do normal working people not have the same time limitations due to being in work all day? Is it because they didn't register in their temporary residential location? If so, who's fault is that? Talk about clutching at straws.

In short...I don’t like referenda, because I don’t believe the vast majority of people are equipped to make such complex decisions. Having said that, perhaps the only way out of the current impasse is a second referendum with more attention to the facts rather than the lies and exaggerations...but guess which side doesn’t want that.

I don't like referenda either for the same reason, but having another merely compounds the sin as, for example, if remain themselves get a minority majority at a second one, that result would be equally inconclusive and in fact create more problems in decision making. I don't see how it could be a way out of any impasse - but I must say that I don't see a way out of it other than "no deal" or "no leave", both of which will create more division

[ramAnag]

RamAnag says:

You’re absolutely right ‘Amster in every respect, but - and we are going round in circles yet again - let’s also not forget that you can’t compare our usual elections with a binary choice referendum, i.e. when there are only two choices for a ‘side’ to say they represent a ‘majority’ or the ‘will of the people’ they surely have to have a vote equivalent to more than 50% of the electorate.

Actually why cant you compare? With the exception of a few constituency that go to LibDems, virtually all constituency general elections are in fact pretty binary, Con v lab, and in many of those cases are in fact unitary - a pig with a blue rosette would win my constituency every time. Its even getting that way in Scotland where Labour has currently been wiped out by SNP and Northern Ireland where politics are more religious based. I'd guess there's only a handful of places where more than two people have a legitimate chance of ever winning a seat

Additionally, if such a referendum is meant to set policy in stone and not be merely ‘advisory’ then we must be totally clear about that beforehand and be voting on what is true, not on a tissue of lies, and not at a time (late June) when many of the electorate are taking advantage of out of season (pre school holiday rates) holidays and many of the student body are effectively disenfranchised.


My impression was that pre referendum there was no perception that the referendum WAS advisory, its only after the result was known that the losers threw this stone into the puddle of clarity. I'm also unsure why a second referendum would not be corrupted by a different pack of lies and as for students being disenfranchised, how do you make that out? is it because the poor dears were busy with exams? How long does it take to vote, and why do normal working people not have the same time limitations due to being in work all day? Is it because they didn't register in their temporary residential location? If so, who's fault is that? Talk about clutching at straws.

In short...I don’t like referenda, because I don’t believe the vast majority of people are equipped to make such complex decisions. Having said that, perhaps the only way out of the current impasse is a second referendum with more attention to the facts rather than the lies and exaggerations...but guess which side doesn’t want that.

I don't like referenda either for the same reason, but having another merely compounds the sin as, for example, if remain themselves get a minority majority at a second one, that result would be equally inconclusive and in fact create more problems in decision making. I don't see how it could be a way out of any impasse - but I must say that I don't see a way out of it other than "no deal" or "no leave", both of which will create more division

You can’t compare because there are invariably at least five candidates - and often more - for every Parliamentary seat in the UK. Yes I accept your ‘pig in a blue rosette’ in Surrey or donkey with a red rosette in Oldham argument, but as long as there are so many candidates/choices you are seldom, if ever, going to have a Government which truly reflects the ‘voice of the people’. A referendum is meant to identify the ‘will of the people’...it hasn’t.

Just not true. Legally, unless stated otherwise - and it never has been - referenda are advisory. How many didn’t make suitable arrangements to vote because a) there was a belief that the result was a foregone b) they didn’t believe the outcome was mandatory?

Nothing to do with exams, Parky. By the end of June many students have finished their academic years and have moved back home. For a variety of reasons, as I’m sure you’ll remember, the exact time for leaving their university/college address and returning home or elsewhere can vary. The student body is significant and in such a serious referendum account should have been taken of this situation.
The voting system is notoriously inflexible. Having organised a postal vote facility for ourselves, because of uncertainty about our whereabouts, I read the small print and realised that my wife and I could actually use a postal vote, in the recent local council elections, in the conventional way...you wouldn’t believe the chaos and phone calls that generated turning what should have been a two minute process into a ten minute one...how many students are going to go to that trouble when asked for proof of residency?

I accept your final point. Can only say that I for one will stfu and get on with it as soon as we have genuinely established what the ‘will of the people’ is. I don’t believe we have at the moment and I’m happy to hear your better suggestion to resolve this seemingly unanswerable situation.