OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don’t think so...but it is an election that I doubt will actually clear the way forward so it may actually lead to a referendum.

You must be in much the same quandary as me.
Johnson’s new Tory Party is an abomination that I could never vote for.
Corbyn and Co. appear as well intentioned incompetents.
The Lib Dems would stop Brexit, which obviously I favour, but I have to acknowledge as being wholly undemocratic without a second Referendum.
The Greens speak a lot of sense but will probably get insufficient support to make a difference in these circumstances.
Spoiling the ballot paper? Complete waste of time.

So...what to do? Vote for whoever I eventually think will beat the Tory who happens to be a new candidate - a solicitor from down your way I believe - who doesn’t even live in the constituency.

My worry about Corbyn is primarily he is out of touch with reality and making promises he cannot keep or fund (not that the other parties are sticking to much of a budget either.)

Re nationalisation? In theory I agree for public services. But renationalising at a cut price to hurt the capitalist stakeholders? Hmm biggest losers there are pensioners or would be pensioners whose funds will lose billions in those circumstances. Ask yourself why I have derisked my pension to under 1% UK equities?

He's like a spoiled kud lashing out in anger at anyone and everyone to satisfy his ideals. Trouble is he's targeting those he is arguably trying to help.

[swaledale]

I don’t think so...but it is an election that I doubt will actually clear the way forward so it may actually lead to a referendum.

You must be in much the same quandary as me.
Johnson’s new Tory Party is an abomination that I could never vote for.
Corbyn and Co. appear as well intentioned incompetents.
The Lib Dems would stop Brexit, which obviously I favour, but I have to acknowledge as being wholly undemocratic without a second Referendum.
The Greens speak a lot of sense but will probably get insufficient support to make a difference in these circumstances.
Spoiling the ballot paper? Complete waste of time.

So...what to do? Vote for whoever I eventually think will beat the Tory who happens to be a new candidate - a solicitor from down your way I believe - who doesn’t even live in the constituency.

I don't get this Lib Dems standing on a Policy of stop Brexit as being undemocratic? They are clear about their policy should the electorate vote fort hem, they can't do it without being voted in democratically, so how the **** is it undemocratic? They are offering a clear democratic choice to the electorate.

Unfortunately they are unlikely to be in a position to be able to enact it.

RA you should ignore the right wing media, financed by ex pat tax avoiding billionaires who as they have historically done, spread outright lies about Corbyn and the labour party.

Compared to Johnson who continues to lie openly, with little challenge from the media, who has been proven to have no grasp of detail and is by every definition a member of the rich privileged privately educated so called elite who **** this country and the majority of people within it, and leads the political party which got the Uk into this mess in the first place. Corbyn is the only sensible choice unless as you say tactical voting requires you to vote for the candidate most likely to beat the Tory candidate.

[mistaram]

My worry about Corbyn is primarily he is out of touch with reality and making promises he cannot keep or
fund (not that the other parties are sticking to much of a budget either.)

Re nationalisation? In theory I agree for public services. But renationalising at a cut price to hurt the capitalist stakeholders? Hmm biggest losers there are pensioners or would be pensioners whose funds will lose billions in those circumstances. Ask yourself why I have derisked my pension to under 1% UK equities?

He's like a spoiled kud lashing out in anger at anyone and everyone to satisfy his ideals. Trouble is he's targeting those he is arguably trying to help.

So who lost out who won when they privatised Royal Mail You obviously don' commute by train everyday paying extortionate prices ,for subsidised foreign owners at tax payers expense

[MadAmster]

What a choice....

Lying bloody Tories (nowt new there) but now led by someone who lies more easily than a whore. Has little regard for anybody but those from his own background. May still rue Arcurigate surfacing in her video. Unworthy of party leadership, never mind being PM.

Labour using Tory tactics in videos. Corbyn et al promising the world and promising to cost it all in their manifesto but forgetting the knock on effect of renationalisation on the Pension Funds of their core voters.

LibDems who can easily promise anything and everything as they know they will never get into a position to carry it through. They will get more seats than they currently have as, IMO, they will do well in constituencies that voted remain. Tories say out, Labour are all for in out, in out shake it all about Hokey Cokeyism, LibDems say stay. 2 of the 3 giving a clear message with regard to the 2016 referendum.

Farridge's lot want out with no deal. IMO a catastrophe for the UK.

The rest are, looking at the bigger picture, irrelevant with the possible exception of the SNP who will sweep (or just about sweep) the board in Scotland. That will give them the mandate to push for Indyref2. BoJo says he won't give them one. It wouldn't surprise me, if he sticks to his word, that Wee Krankie declares UDI. That would, finacially cripple England either way. The Scots, in 2018 paid 62 billion into the Treasury and got 36 billion back. Without that 26 billion net gain, England will be buggered. THAT is why BoJo doesn't want them to have Indyref2.

[Geoff Parkstone]

So who lost out who won when they privatised Royal Mail You obviously don' commute by train everyday paying extortionate prices ,for subsidised foreign owners at tax payers expense

Royal Mail privatisation was a disgrace pricing wise.

Until recently I commuted every day into London for 30 odd years. Its not great now but it was a lot worse as a nationalised industry, both in service quality and investment in infrastructure. Not to mention constant strikes and ancient rolling stock.

I suspect I have more experience on this one than you....

[ramAnag]

I don't get this Lib Dems standing on a Policy of stop Brexit as being undemocratic? They are clear about their policy should the electorate vote fort hem, they can't do it without being voted in democratically, so how the **** is it undemocratic? They are offering a clear democratic choice to the electorate.

Unfortunately they are unlikely to be in a position to be able to enact it.

RA you should ignore the right wing media, financed by ex pat tax avoiding billionaires who as they have historically done, spread outright lies about Corbyn and the labour party.

Compared to Johnson who continues to lie openly, with little challenge from the media, who has been proven to have no grasp of detail and is by every definition a member of the rich privileged privately educated so called elite who **** this country and the majority of people within it, and leads the political party which got the Uk into this mess in the first place. Corbyn is the only sensible choice unless as you say tactical voting requires you to vote for the candidate most likely to beat the Tory candidate.

You’re right Swale. The Lib Dems are offering a democratic choice but it is one that can, without a second informed referendum, only lead to greater division because it effectively disenfranchises the 52% of the active electorate/37% of the potential electorate who voted for Brexit back in 2016...or at least that is what they’ll vociferously claim.

Like you I think that 2016 result was the stupidest exercise in National self harm that I can ever recall and I would dearly love to see it overthrown, but to do it in the way Jo Swinson suggests will, imo, just make martyrs of Farage, Johnson and the rest of the Brexit brigade.

Johnson, the ERG and the Brexiteers have absolutely no right to refer to themselves as the ‘voice of the people’ but I fear that Swinson’s stance runs the risk of giving them greater credibility.

I don’t think anyone on here who has followed this thread would conclude that I take too much notice of the ‘right wing media’.
That aside I agree with every word of what you’ve written about Johnson and I think circumstances will actually dictate that I vote Labour, but I would do so with much more confidence with a different leadership team in place.

Ironically that may well be the ultimate outcome because if Corbyn and Co. fail yet again to overthrow this dreadful, lying, incompetent, right wing ragbag of a Tory Government then I think the penny will finally drop with the Labour membership and a new and more electable Labour leadership will be the result. Just hope it doesn’t come too late.

[mistaram]

Royal Mail privatisation was a disgrace pricing wise.

Until recently I commuted every day into London for 30 odd years. Its not great now but it was a lot worse as a nationalised industry, both in service quality and investment in infrastructure. Not to mention constant strikes and ancient rolling stock.

I suspect I have more experience on this one than you....

Yes Geoff obviously you have a lot more commuting experience than me But it doesn't take genius to know that these foreign franchise are ripping the tax payer off I wonder how country survived the 50s60s and70s when had nationalised power, water, mail, Tele communications,etc under different coloured governments In those days they also had libraries, legal aid, council houses ,free school milk , prescriptions, etc A good economy has a mixture of private and public resources , But with this lot in power now it's always private is good public is bad I just get pissed of with companies like G4s doing a terrible job of everything they touch from prisons to the probation service fleecing the tax payer They get fined for for their poor performance and who do you think pays the fines

[mistaram]

You’re right Swale. The Lib Dems are offering a democratic choice but it is one that can, without a second informed referendum, only lead to greater division because it effectively disenfranchises the 52% of the active electorate/37% of the potential electorate who voted for Brexit back in 2016...or at least that is what they’ll vociferously claim.

Like you I think that 2016 result was the stupidest exercise in National self harm that I can ever recall and I would dearly love to see it overthrown, but to do it in the way Jo Swinson suggests will, imo, just make martyrs of Farage, Johnson and the rest of the Brexit brigade.

Johnson, the ERG and the Brexiteers have absolutely no right to refer to themselves as the ‘voice of the people’ but I fear that Swinson’s stance runs the risk of giving them greater credibility.

I don’t think anyone on here who has followed this thread would conclude that I take too much notice of the ‘right wing media’.
That aside I agree with every word of what you’ve written about Johnson and I think circumstances will actually dictate that I vote Labour, but I would do so with much more confidence with a different leadership team in place.

Ironically that may well be the ultimate outcome because if Corbyn and Co. fail yet again to overthrow this dreadful, lying, incompetent, right wing ragbag of a Tory Government then I think the penny will finally drop with the Labour membership and a new and more electable Labour leadership will be the result. Just hope it doesn’t come too late.

RA agree with all that But can't see a change of leader any time soon Militant have a such a strangle hold of the party now They are only going to let someone with extreme left views be in charge By the way where is Rees-Mogg hiding

[macstheman]

Since Momentum gained control of the Labour Party for once we have the option of voting for a genuine leftist party. This means we have a choice between a blatant right wing candidate and an aggressive socialist one. Normally, it's a fudge between a Centre Left on the one hand and a Centre Right on the other with the rest umming and aaarrrrghing where they are (except the seperatists of course who at least have a clear aim). Occasionally, the other lot (I think they call them Liberals but God knows what that is!) had the odd decent leader but that are mainly arseholes now run by the biggest arsehole!!
Unfortunately, Momentum needed Corbyn to get in power and are now lumbered with him so that brings the need to fudge back!
So, your choice is simple!!
Me, I'm a Centre Left fudge who can't make his mind up whether to get off his fat arse and vote. After as long that I'll probably go for the ummers and aaarghers on the basis of being the best local candidate!!
Now, who's an arsehole!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yes Geoff obviously you have a lot more commuting experience than me But it doesn't take genius to know that these foreign franchise are ripping the tax payer off I wonder how country survived the 50s60s and70s when had nationalised power, water, mail, Tele communications,etc under different coloured governments In those days they also had libraries, legal aid, council houses ,free school milk , prescriptions, etc A good economy has a mixture of private and public resources , But with this lot in power now it's always private is good public is bad I just get pissed of with companies like G4s doing a terrible job of everything they touch from prisons to the probation service fleecing the tax payer They get fined for for their poor performance and who do you think pays the fines

I tend to agree with you Mista, that public services should be in public ownership - thus water, power definitely should be. Mail and telecomms have been compromised and cannot really return to public ownership: yes, you could renationalise the "old fashioned" parts of mail and phones, but not all the logistics and telecomms companies, so you would simply get selection against the state owned sector if you did, which by definition would quickly become even more bureaucratised and unable to react to change as they were when previously nationalised.

Rail is an interesting one; in theory it could and maybe should be nationalised again, but at a fair price, not at a Corbyn style basement bargain steal prices. Sure, the original privatisations were not correctly priced, leaving money on the table, but two wrongs don't make a right - and, to a large extent, most of the public utility companies are effectively in public investment via workplace and personal pension funds: a rapidly growing source of long term cheap internal funding for the nation. Avoidance of foreign ownership of our public utility companies is also desirable but how can you stop it? The capital provided by those overseas companies is important, and we live in a globalised economy. To suggest that foreign investment should be stopped makes you sound like a hardcore Brexiteer!!

But its no good look back with rose tinted glasses to the land of milk and honey 50s, 60s, 70s. Consider the destruction of the rail services under public ownership by Beeching Report. Balance sheets have to balance whoever owns it. The whole of the rail service in the southeast is barely fit for purpose in terms of capacity to move people to and from work. The irony, of course, is that when the grand infrastructural improvement plans come into effect (if ever), they wont be needed as everyone will be home working! So maybe the current state of the service is waiting for work practices to catch up.

Instead we piss away trillions on the madcap HS2 scheme, which is trying to facilitate a political end of regional development by making it quicker to get north, but in reality will make it easier for even more people to commute to London from further away up the Birmingham line. It doesnt matter who "owns" the railways, when massive capital budgets are wasted on such projects

[Geoff Parkstone]

You’re right Swale. The Lib Dems are offering a democratic choice but it is one that can, without a second informed referendum, only lead to greater division because it effectively disenfranchises the 52% of the active electorate/37% of the potential electorate who voted for Brexit back in 2016...or at least that is what they’ll vociferously claim.

Like you I think that 2016 result was the stupidest exercise in National self harm that I can ever recall and I would dearly love to see it overthrown, but to do it in the way Jo Swinson suggests will, imo, just make martyrs of Farage, Johnson and the rest of the Brexit brigade.

Johnson, the ERG and the Brexiteers have absolutely no right to refer to themselves as the ‘voice of the people’ but I fear that Swinson’s stance runs the risk of giving them greater credibility.

I don’t think anyone on here who has followed this thread would conclude that I take too much notice of the ‘right wing media’.
That aside I agree with every word of what you’ve written about Johnson and I think circumstances will actually dictate that I vote Labour, but I would do so with much more confidence with a different leadership team in place.

Ironically that may well be the ultimate outcome because if Corbyn and Co. fail yet again to overthrow this dreadful, lying, incompetent, right wing ragbag of a Tory Government then I think the penny will finally drop with the Labour membership and a new and more electable Labour leadership will be the result. Just hope it doesn’t come too late.

Time for the return of the centrist left remain labour leader........step forward Mr Anthony Blair! For all his faults and warmongering, he would be someone who I could support and even vote for.... or do I mean Lionel Blair. It is unfortunate that the labour party have no credible leadership, or Brexit policy, otherwise they could dominate the upcoming election and irrevocably harm the conservative party for at least a decade. But they haven't and this is what Johnson is relying on. He's a ****, but there's an even less electable **** up against him, and no other credible option. At present I think I would vote Plaid Cymru if only they had a candidate in Reigate & Banstead.......

[ramAnag]

RA agree with all that But can't see a change of leader any time soon Militant have a such a strangle hold of the party now They are only going to let someone with extreme left views be in charge By the way where is Rees-Mogg hiding

Hopefully in that ditch that Johnson promised to **** off to!

Interesting that so many of the decent and thinking folk on here this morning are professing support for aspects of nationalisation and centre left policies.
Tragic that there is such reservation about voting for the current Labour leadership.

There’ll have to be a change of leadership imo, mista, if Corbyn fails again.
Cameron and May were two of the most incompetent PM’s we’ve ever know and yet somehow Johnson makes them look half decent.
If Corbyn can’t defeat the current corrupt, dishonest and incapable incumbent he’ll have to go. I’m sure with a more credible leader Labour would be romping this election.

[swaledale]

Royal Mail privatisation was a disgrace pricing wise.

Until recently I commuted every day into London for 30 odd years. Its not great now but it was a lot worse as a nationalised industry, both in service quality and investment in infrastructure. Not to mention constant strikes and ancient rolling stock.

I suspect I have more experience on this one than you....

Ah but during which time period as a nationalised industry, in the 5 years prior to privatisation BR had got its act together, was better organised, had less interference from government and was able to invest in new trains, the servie in those years was as good if not better than now and the fares were more reasonable. Also the public subsidy going into the railway network was half (in real terms) what it is now.

Its very easy to paint a picture of "nationalised industries as failures or badly run, but actually nobody seems to bang on about the numerous appallingly run private industries - too numerous to mention which have given appalling service and whose failure has cost the tax payer billions, such as the Northern Rock and RBS banks, Thomas Cook, BHS and those are just for starters!

[swaledale]

Time for the return of the centrist left remain labour leader........step forward Mr Anthony Blair! For all his faults and warmongering, he would be someone who I could support and even vote for.... or do I mean Lionel Blair. It is unfortunate that the labour party have no credible leadership, or Brexit policy, otherwise they could dominate the upcoming election and irrevocably harm the conservative party for at least a decade. But they haven't and this is what Johnson is relying on. He's a ****, but there's an even less electable **** up against him, and no other credible option. At present I think I would vote Plaid Cymru if only they had a candidate in Reigate & Banstead.......

I know the Labour party is imperfect. But what I see is a group of people genuinely seeking to solve our massive problems – environmental, political, economic, medical and social – rather than appeasing press barons and queueing at the notorious revolving door between politics and money-making. One only has to look at what Blair's main efforts have been since he left office - raking in money and from dubious sources and countries in many cases.

As for the militants having gained control of the labour party, mm perhaps its a case that previously the Labour party was in the control of people who would not have looked out of place in Thatchers government?

Unless people can understand that a fairer world means a little more giving and a lot less taking, looking after those less fortunate and more consensus then we are ****ed. Whatever you may feel about Corbyn he comes across as far more genuine than Johnson and is open on his views and policies, does anyone actually know what Johnson believes in? Apart from fulfilling his own ambition and greed that is which must be obvious to all!

[Geoff Parkstone]

" Unless people can understand that a fairer world means a little more giving and a lot less taking"

An interesting philosophy and one which, if I am honest, I dont share with you. I basically have little interest in fairness achieved by taking from the doers and giving to the not doers, or whichever variant of that expression one uses. I work damned hard for the money I make (well, apart from today, maybe) and Im buggered if I want to see huge chunks of it taken away through tax and given to people who cannot be bothered to get off their arses, preferring to sit in their council flats all day watching TV, smoking fags and getting banjoed on cheap strong cider. OK that's may be an extreme, some may prefer cannabis as an anti depressant of choice, but.....

More reasonably put, I believe reward should be related to effort and investment of time, energy and yes, perhaps money, in your own income and future. Whether that be a finance graduate working in finance, a nursing graduate in the NHS or a binman doing a long dirty shift clearing up trash. Each has a value in society and a reward that should be appropriate to that value. At the moment some of that value is bent out of shape, and needs straightening out: eg a hedge fund manager earning millions in bonuses is perfidious but equally supporting people who contribute nothing of value to society is equally wrong.

Does that make me a mean spirited, cold hearted *******? I dont think so, but you may disagree! Oddly I was talking to my son, just recently he is now no longer a student, when he was very pro Corbyn (as he promised free higher education). Now he basically says that his vote is for sale to whoever offers him the best options and deal: promise to abolish outstanding student loans he would support you whole heartedly. Giving bigger tax credits to working mums - not interested. Gender based pay equality - not if it costs me. Free broadband - not worth bothering just to save 30 quid a month......

Beyond the idealists (many of whom probably are financially secure enough in retirement now to vote on principle, not personal gain) do you know anyone who does not vote without self interest at their core? Certainly adherents of the two major parteis seem to