OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

So you and the like were justified to call out the government for considering breaking a law, but anyone who dares criticise your beloved EU for their disgraceful actions are on the jingoistic anti EU bandwagon?

Narrow minded Englanders can't grasp the global pandemic, do me a favour, which country will donate the most vaccines to the third world this year, which company has developed and is selling an easily distributed vaccine for NO PROFIT to the third world?

People like you, who hate this country so much, make me sick.

Oh God, here we go again. There seem to be one or two showing their true colours tonight

Anyone who opposes Brexit or doesn’t speak disdainfully of Europeans ‘hates this country’. I remember having that one chucked at me by someone who then had to make a ham fisted apology.

No idea what’s up with you tonight Ram. You and I will often disagree but you usually show some respect and think things through.

Which bit of Swale saying, ‘I’m not defending the EU’s stance...’ did you fail to comprehend, and what has he said that leads you to think he ‘hates this country’.

[MadAmster]

So you and the like were justified to call out the government for considering breaking a law, but anyone who dares criticise your beloved EU for their disgraceful actions are on the jingoistic anti EU bandwagon?

Narrow minded Englanders can't grasp the global pandemic, do me a favour, which country will donate the most vaccines to the third world this year, which company has developed and is selling an easily distributed vaccine for NO PROFIT to the third world?

People like you, who hate this country so much, make me sick.

The company is easy to answer, 59, The British-Swedish Astra Zeneca.

With regard to which country, are you referring to only Covid vaccines or to all vaccines. With that info I can research and probably answer the question.

[Andy_Faber]

What do you expect? The Uk has hardly covered it self in glory with its actions and words. Not defending the EU, but they are a group of politicians creating a smokescreen for their own cock ups, just as for decades Uk politicians blamed the EU for things they either chose not to do or had cocked up.

No argument there, I’m just talking about the most recent fubar.

[swaledale]

So you and the like were justified to call out the government for considering breaking a law, but anyone who dares criticise your beloved EU for their disgraceful actions are on the jingoistic anti EU bandwagon?

Narrow minded Englanders can't grasp the global pandemic, do me a favour, which country will donate the most vaccines to the third world this year, which company has developed and is selling an easily distributed vaccine for NO PROFIT to the third world?

People like you, who hate this country so much, make me sick.

And so a typical dog whistle response - perhaps you should read what i say, rather than an instant reaction to me commenting that if the Uk behaves in a certain way, one should not be surprised if the EU or other countries do the same. Do I approve? No and I make that clear, I'm just not so blinded by nationalistic fervour as to think the UK is blameless in this.

As I thought and indicated in my post, the EU have now backed down, as they were bound to do, it was silly politicians playing to their voters who love a bit of "they don't like it up them!" It doesn't take much rational thinking to see beyond the chest thumping rhetoric!

Well when you talk about which country has developed a vaccine thats been sold at cost, or is to be provided free, thats complicated, seeing as astrazenica are a multi national firm and both the UK, the EU and other countries have contributed millions of pounds to develop vaccines. So yes we are doing our bit and so are other countries.

How taking a step back and looking objectively at whats happening, rather than leaping on a band wagon driven in the main by a sensationalist right wing media, owned by billionaires who pay little tax and don't even live in the UK can be translated as hating this country is a little puzzling. Nor is it my beloved EU, It has strengths and weaknesses like any other human organisation, trouble is a lot of people see a them and us situation, which its not.

[Ram59]

And so a typical dog whistle response - perhaps you should read what i say, rather than an instant reaction to me commenting that if the Uk behaves in a certain way, one should not be surprised if the EU or other countries do the same. Do I approve? No and I make that clear, I'm just not so blinded by nationalistic fervour as to think the UK is blameless in this.

As I thought and indicated in my post, the EU have now backed down, as they were bound to do, it was silly politicians playing to their voters who love a bit of "they don't like it up them!" It doesn't take much rational thinking to see beyond the chest thumping rhetoric!

Well when you talk about which country has developed a vaccine thats been sold at cost, or is to be provided free, thats complicated, seeing as astrazenica are a multi national firm and both the UK, the EU and other countries have contributed millions of pounds to develop vaccines. So yes we are doing our bit and so are other countries.

How taking a step back and looking objectively at whats happening, rather than leaping on a band wagon driven in the main by a sensationalist right wing media, owned by billionaires who pay little tax and don't even live in the UK can be translated as hating this country is a little puzzling. Nor is it my beloved EU, It has strengths and weaknesses like any other human organisation, trouble is a lot of people see a them and us situation, which its not.

I love you to inform me how the UK is someway to blame for this latest spat. Despite the media begging for some escalation from the UK government, they have shown considerable restraint in this matter. This is an argument between the EU and Astra, which is Swedish owned.

I must have missed your posts where you have ever criticised the EU then. Would you be prepared to critcise the EU's vaccination programme and their actions of the last week? A simple 'yes', would suffice?

You've previously slated the little Englanders selfish attitude would do little to help this global problem. I believe that the UK being probably the first major nation with excess orders, to vaccinate its population, will also be the first to donate large volumes of spare vaccines to the third world, including the EU. Also, the COVAX organisation in partnership with the WHO, has been set up to buy vaccines for the poorer countries, the UK is by far the biggest contributing country to this fund.

[Trickytreesreds]

You've previously slated the little Englanders selfish attitude would do little to help this global problem.

Selfish is a broad meaning.
Is it as selfish as a group of unelected bureaucrats, deciding for themselves who dies to suit their needs?
Is it as selfish as stopping its members from purchasing their own supplies, then holding back treatment for 3 months before inflicting the same misery of those, who had more foresight?


All I will say is this. Had Johnson and the Tories behaved like this, how many in here would have gone ballistic calling for Johnsons head?
I uspect I could name them.

[Andy_Faber]

You've previously slated the little Englanders selfish attitude would do little to help this global problem.

Selfish is a broad meaning.
Is it as selfish as a group of unelected bureaucrats, deciding for themselves who dies to suit their needs?
Is it as selfish as stopping its members from purchasing their own supplies, then holding back treatment for 3 months before inflicting the same misery of those, who had more foresight?


All I will say is this. Had Johnson and the Tories behaved like this, how many in here would have gone ballistic calling for Johnsons head?
I uspect I could name them.

To be honest TTR I would be holding Swale's coat while he strung Boris up by his gonads and I'd do the same for rA with Cummings just out of even handedness if HMG had got us in the mess the EU are in, but somehow (and that somehow is a long. long way from being due to HMG genius alone) they have dodged a bullet thus far.

[ramAnag]

To be honest TTR I would be holding Swale's coat while he strung Boris up by his gonads and I'd do the same for rA with Cummings just out of even handedness if HMG had got us in the mess the EU are in, but somehow (and that somehow is a long. long way from being due to HMG genius alone) they have dodged a bullet this far.

Could you do the same while I spend five minutes alone in a room with Williamson please?

More seriously and speaking personally, although I suspect Swale might agree, the difference is that I don’t see us as being in some sort of competition.
HMG seriously screwed up over most of it’s handling of the pandemic...that’s why the figures are so bad.
They have gone some way to putting that right by making a much better job of sorting vaccinations (so far) than either the EU or, from what I gather, the US.
So both credit and criticism where it’s due, but headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ just don’t help and neither does the anti EU point scoring mentality from the usual suspects on here.
As Swale, I think, has pointed out...yes we have to look after ourselves but this ‘I’m alright Jack’ attitude will achieve nothing and if we are to return to something approaching normality within the next few months we have to realise that we are all in this together and all sides need to stop the ‘point scoring’.

[Andy_Faber]

Could you do the same while I spend five minutes alone in a room with Williamson please?

More seriously and speaking personally, although I suspect Swale might agree, the difference is that I don’t see us as being in some sort of competition.
HMG seriously screwed up over most of it’s handling of the pandemic...that’s why the figures are so bad.
They have gone some way to putting that right by making a much better job of sorting vaccinations (so far) than either the EU or, from what I gather, the US.
So both credit and criticism where it’s due, but headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ just don’t help and neither does the anti EU point scoring mentality from the usual suspects on here.
As Swale, I think, has pointed out...yes we have to look after ourselves but this ‘I’m alright Jack’ attitude will achieve nothing and if we are to return to something approaching normality within the next few months we have to realise that we are all in this together and all sides need to stop the ‘point scoring’.

I could decide between Cummings and Williamson, that's why you see an edit on my post!

I think its super-difficult not to make everything somewhat 'competitive' in today's world rA but I'm doing more of a compare and contrast than a footy score thing - I wish we were going twice as fast, I wish Spain was going ten times as fast (my front-line medic friend Mygella is the ONLY vaccine protected member of staff in her hospital in Spain and she got her jab in Ireland), I wish Israel would jab some Palestinians in a peaceful way for once, but I DO believe UKPlc are doing more than most to help the rest of the world. I also think some EU leaders (notably Macron) have let their Nationalist cloaks drop way more than anyone in UK recently
Note also my post aims to credit everyone in the mix, not just those in government

[Trickytreesreds]

But the competitiveness, is fuelled by the EU itself. It is a protectionist racket and if you are not in, you are the enemy.
They have gone from everything from using Ireland/NIreland to claiming the Oxford vaccine doesn't work(even though they want it)

So say what you wish, it isn't in their interest to think charitable to anyone outside the bloc.
If as claimed in here, we all should be working together. Why did they try to blackmail us and put Ireland into the mixer?
They could have simply asked for all parties to sit down and talk. But oh no, they went straight for the jugular, to cover their own arses.
Had Johnsons crew done this, there would have been some serious screaming in here. In fact it would be claimed it was Brexits fault, for not being in a common collective.
Laughable really.

[Ram59]

Could you do the same while I spend five minutes alone in a room with Williamson please?

More seriously and speaking personally, although I suspect Swale might agree, the difference is that I don’t see us as being in some sort of competition.
HMG seriously screwed up over most of it’s handling of the pandemic...that’s why the figures are so bad.
They have gone some way to putting that right by making a much better job of sorting vaccinations (so far) than either the EU or, from what I gather, the US.
So both credit and criticism where it’s due, but headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ just don’t help and neither does the anti EU point scoring mentality from the usual suspects on here.
As Swale, I think, has pointed out...yes we have to look after ourselves but this ‘I’m alright Jack’ attitude will achieve nothing and if we are to return to something approaching normality within the next few months we have to realise that we are all in this together and all sides need to stop the ‘point scoring’.

Who was the one who has been comparing our death figures with those of other countries around the world? It seems that it's only point scoring when the UK is ahead.

Out of interest, who are you referring to regarding having this 'I'm alright Jack' attitude?

In time, hopefully, some enquiry will come to a balanced view as to why our figures are so bad, there will be many factors which all coming together have made the difference.

Off the top of my head, here's a few

Poor decisions from the government, some with hindsight, some listening to the wrong experts, some just plain wrong.
Ignorance or just plain disobedience of some of the population
A very high level of obesity in the population
A very high proportion of BAME within the population
Bad luck with type of variants of covid occuring in the UK

Some governments have handled it better some worse
Our nature is not always to be as compliant as some other nations
Simple fact more obese people die from covid and we have one of the highest obesity rates
As above
We have identified the 'British' variant which has caused this latest massive spike in cases and deaths, a much higher proportion of our cases compared with other countries, who's to say that the variant we had right at the start, was not another 'British type' variant, that didn't occur elsewhere?

One interesting fact is that although Britain has tested far more people now than many other countries (point scoring), our total number of cases, isn't so high, but our deaths are. From this fact do we assume that our health service has failed or has one of the above factors come into the equation?

[Andy_Faber]

Who was the one who has been comparing our death figures with those of other countries around the world? It seems that it's only point scoring when the UK is ahead.

Out of interest, who are you referring to regarding having this 'I'm alright Jack' attitude?

In time, hopefully, some enquiry will come to a balanced view as to why our figures are so bad, there will be many factors which all coming together have made the difference.

Off the top of my head, here's a few

Poor decisions from the government, some with hindsight, some listening to the wrong experts, some just plain wrong.
Ignorance or just plain disobedience of some of the population
A very high level of obesity in the population
A very high proportion of BAME within the population
Bad luck with type of variants of covid occuring in the UK

Some governments have handled it better some worse
Our nature is not always to be as compliant as some other nations
Simple fact more obese people die from covid and we have one of the highest obesity rates
As above
We have identified the 'British' variant which has caused this latest massive spike in cases and deaths, a much higher proportion of our cases compared with other countries, who's to say that the variant we had right at the start, was not another 'British type' variant, that didn't occur elsewhere?

One interesting fact is that although Britain has tested far more people now than many other countries (point scoring), our total number of cases, isn't so high, but our deaths are. From this fact do we assume that our health service has failed or has one of the above factors come into the equation?

Exactly what I would have written, plus one further point, our reporting honesty is better than most (my best knowledge is of Spain, and they have been found out internally to be under reporting, I'm sure other countries are equally culpable)

The ratio of admissions to deaths is a real touchy subject amongst all in positions of power, I mentioned recently a BBc interview where the answer given was non-sencical but allowed to go

[ramAnag]

Who was the one who has been comparing our death figures with those of other countries around the world? It seems that it's only point scoring when the UK is ahead.

Out of interest, who are you referring to regarding having this 'I'm alright Jack' attitude?

In time, hopefully, some enquiry will come to a balanced view as to why our figures are so bad, there will be many factors which all coming together have made the difference.

Off the top of my head, here's a few

Poor decisions from the government, some with hindsight, some listening to the wrong experts, some just plain wrong.
Ignorance or just plain disobedience of some of the population
A very high level of obesity in the population
A very high proportion of BAME within the population
Bad luck with type of variants of covid occuring in the UK

Some governments have handled it better some worse
Our nature is not always to be as compliant as some other nations
Simple fact more obese people die from covid and we have one of the highest obesity rates
As above
We have identified the 'British' variant which has caused this latest massive spike in cases and deaths, a much higher proportion of our cases compared with other countries, who's to say that the variant we had right at the start, was not another 'British type' variant, that didn't occur elsewhere?

One interesting fact is that although Britain has tested far more people now than many other countries (point scoring), our total number of cases, isn't so high, but our deaths are. From this fact do we assume that our health service has failed or has one of the above factors come into the equation?

It’s completely unavoidable to reach certain conclusions when one sees one’s own country having the worst Covid related figures in Europe and amongst the worst in the World.
Yes I criticised the UK Govt for that, just as I’ve congratulated them for the vaccine handling. Not a case of point scoring...the fact that our figures were so poor just saddened and worried me.

Do we have a higher proportion of obese or BAME or even old people in the population than say Germany or France? I just don’t know.
Are we naturally ‘less compliant’ than other countries? Again I don’t know, not sure how you can tell, but MA’s recent evidence from Holland would suggest not, as would the recent scenes from the USA.
You can come up with all manner of excuses. The fact is our case and death figures are as bad as our vaccination figures are good and you’re in danger of just ‘cherry picking’.

The ‘I’m alright Jack attitude’ is illustrated by headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ which appeared this morning and, as ever, the more jingoistic anti EU commentators. It’s really unhelpful imo.

As regards the ‘British variant’. It’s only a couple of weeks ago you were denying it’s existence. Now you’re suggesting there might be two. Make your mind up chap.

On the ‘testing point’. Could it be that we were very slow getting the testing sorted and that those making up the ‘death figures’ now were already too far down the line before this was done?

As a POI on testing...my daughter, who has been teaching every school day since last June, has very recently been provided with the facility to self test twice a week between last week and half term. The only time she’d been tested beforehand was when someone she’d come into contact with on site had already proved ‘positive’.

[Ram59]

It’s completely unavoidable to reach certain conclusions when one sees one’s own country having the worst Covid related figures in Europe and amongst the worst in the World.
Yes I criticised the UK Govt for that, just as I’ve congratulated them for the vaccine handling. Not a case of point scoring...the fact that our figures were so poor just saddened and worried me.

Do we have a higher proportion of obese or BAME or even old people in the population than say Germany or France? I just don’t know.
Are we naturally ‘less compliant’ than other countries? Again I don’t know, not sure how you can tell, but MA’s recent evidence from Holland would suggest not, as would the recent scenes from the USA.
You can come up with all manner of excuses. The fact is our case and death figures are as bad as our vaccination figures are good and you’re in danger of just ‘cherry picking’.

The ‘I’m alright Jack attitude’ is illustrated by headlines such as ‘Brexit 1 v EU 0’ which appeared this morning and, as ever, the more jingoistic anti EU commentators. It’s really unhelpful imo.

As regards the ‘British variant’. It’s only a couple of weeks ago you were denying it’s existence. Now you’re suggesting there might be two. Make your mind up chap.

On the ‘testing point’. Could it be that we were very slow getting the testing sorted and that those making up the ‘death figures’ now were already too far down the line before this was done?

As a POI on testing...my daughter, who has been teaching every school day since last June, has very recently been provided with the facility to self test twice a week between last week and half term. The only time she’d been tested beforehand was when someone she’d come into contact with on site had already proved ‘positive’.

So, you're quoting the headlines from a comic to illustrate your belief of the UK's attitude in this matter, fair enough, but I believe that Macron and 1 eastern EU leaders attitudes are far more concerning. Macron spreading lies about the efficiency of the Astra vaccine and the other leader claiming that the UK has stolen their vaccines because we paid more to get them, we must have been psychic because we agreed our price 3 months before the EU. These people are leaders of their countries, for Christ's sake.

I've never been Johnson's biggest fan,but I think our government's handling of this situation has been excellent so far, resisting all temptation of being jingoistic.

As I've said. hopefully, a balanced and fair enquiry will get to the bottom of the covid figures, which simply don't appear to add up. There has to be a reason or a combination of reasons, as to why we have these figures. There has to be a reason for our very high death when coupled with our case rate per test. I've just thought of another important criteria, population density. But, then countries like India, don't appear to have suffered so much, or is it a case of other countries not been honest with their data? I don't know.

Cheap shot RA, when have I denied that there is a variant first found in Britain? My objection was entirely Merkel's description of the British virus, I expected better from you. But my point still stands, we now know that there are many variations of the same virus with different infection rates and different death rates, this is probably the most sensible answer as to why different countries are being affected to different levels. Basically, it could largely down to luck whether you have the 'wrong' variant in your country which significantly affects the death rate. Considering we're in lockdown, our medics have more knowledge to treat patients and we're constantly being told that new drugs and treatments are saving more lives, the recent wave has been horrendous, could it be down to the common variant, ATM?

On a side note I agreed with Sonia Sodha's article in the Observer today, regarding Starmer and the GMA and their thoughts on teacher vaccinations and the second dose delay, respectively.

The trouble is that we're drifting from one topic to another, ATM. lol

[ramAnag]

So, you're quoting the headlines from a comic to illustrate your belief of the UK's attitude in this matter, fair enough, but I believe that Macron and 1 eastern EU leaders attitudes are far more concerning. Macron spreading lies about the efficiency of the Astra vaccine and the other leader claiming that the UK has stolen their vaccines because we paid more to get them, we must have been psychic because we agreed our price 3 months before the EU. These people are leaders of their countries, for Christ's sake.

I've never been Johnson's biggest fan,but I think our government's handling of this situation has been excellent so far, resisting all temptation of being jingoistic.

As I've said. hopefully, a balanced and fair enquiry will get to the bottom of the covid figures, which simply don't appear to add up. There has to be a reason or a combination of reasons, as to why we have these figures. There has to be a reason for our very high death when coupled with our case rate per test. I've just thought of another important criteria, population density. But, then countries like India, don't appear to have suffered so much, or is it a case of other countries not been honest with their data? I don't know.

Cheap shot RA, when have I denied that there is a variant first found in Britain? My objection was entirely Merkel's description of the British virus, I expected better from you. But my point still stands, we now know that there are many variations of the same virus with different infection rates and different death rates, this is probably the most sensible answer as to why different countries are being affected to different levels. Basically, it could largely down to luck whether you have the 'wrong' variant in your country which significantly affects the death rate. Considering we're in lockdown, our medics have more knowledge to treat patients and we're constantly being told that new drugs and treatments are saving more lives, the recent wave has been horrendous, could it be down to the common variant, ATM?

On a side note I agreed with Sonia Sodha's article in the Observer today, regarding Starmer and the GMA and their thoughts on teacher vaccinations and the second dose delay, respectively.

The trouble is that we're drifting from one topic to another, ATM. lol

I may be ‘quoting from a comic’, Ram...but it’s a widely read ‘comic’ that unfortunately forms and supports a lot of populist opinion in this country.

‘Balanced enquiry’? I’ll await that with interest...or maybe not. If it’s anything like the Hillsborough enquiry, amongst others, it’ll will probably have been completed by about 2045.

I don’t think it’s a ‘cheap shot’ at all. A fortnight or so ago you queried the existence of a ‘British variant’ and threw a strop over European politicians having the audacity to refer to the ‘British virus’ even though it was only as a means of identification.
Now you seem to be raising the possibility of an original unidentified British variant as a possible explanation for our woeful figures.
Seems somewhat inconsistent to me.