OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

You could, GP, but too much verisimilitude and emotion about your grandfather’s orchards. I’m not going to argue with that.

Don’t need to anyway...could just ask about the shortage of fruit (fruit pickers), the shortage of deliveries and refuse collecting (lack of HGV drivers), the shortage of hotel and restaurant staff (EU hospitality workers) etc, etc. Sure Covid has played a part but it’s largely down to you know what.

It’s a bit like how all the corner shops and taxi firms were taken over by Asians because the indigenous white population didn’t fancy the long hours...then there was an unemployment crisis and the same people started moaning about ‘Pakis’ taking ‘our’ jobs.

And the argument to that is, WAGES!!!

I'll pick on lorry drivers, because my neighbour is one.
We've had many a long discussion about this and the list above came into it.

When he started driving in the 80's, the money was wonderful, for years.
Firms paid well, good pensions etc. Then it started to open up with foreign drivers coming in.
You got agencies jumping on board, offering these jobs abroad for less money. But to them it was a fortune and the wage started to drop.
Poland was the first big jump and they flooded in. Happy to work long hours for £10-12 an hour, as it was 3 times what they made in Poland.
Then they started to realise, that the standard of living was rising in Poland and they were being shafted and the emphasis shifted to Romania.
So the cycle continued. Suppressed wages for all and the pay earned was frittered away back abroad.
Now the Romanians are drifting as they get better money.

You can apply this analogy across the board, from your fruit pickers, to electricians etc.
I myself, went into an apprenticeship and further education all paid for by an employer.
THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS SEEN THAT VANISH. Because employers have had a pool of labour to pick, without investments.

Where has that left us? Bolloxed basically. Lack of skills for the future, suppressed wages, population explosion sucking up everything.
All because the EU said it was wonderful.
The same tripe comes out all the time to justify it. We need more migration to deal with the population growth. The population grows and more demands are made.

All it has done, is create an underclass here now, with people without a degree struggling to gain anything.

I think that's wrong and its our own fault, for allowing it to happen.

[ramAnag]

So to be clear.
You are saying Brexit was only about trade then and immigration/services/housing(quality of life)/being ruled by more and more by a federal bureacracy had feck all to do with it?

Champagne socialists. Do you live in a crowded urban environment? Do you live near the bottom rung of the cash ladder|?

If you don't then yes, you ARE a champagne socialist.

Don’t be so ridiculous. Of course I’m not saying that Brexit was ‘only about’ trade. However there were plenty of false promises from the Remainers about the brave new world of trade deals with places other than the huge and infinitely more accessible EU market. How’s that working out?

Neither have I, or Swale to the best of my knowledge, ever argued that the EU was perfect. It has always been flawed but it sure as hell had a lot to offer and I for one felt more comfortable with our place in the world than I do now.

As for ‘champagne socialist’...you’re obsessed and completely illogical. So...because I live in a rural location and am not actually poor (‘near the bottom rung of the cash ladder’) I must be a ‘champagne socialist’. Really? I don’t think I’ve ever read such complete and utter nonsense on here before...not even from you.

[Trickytreesreds]

Don’t be so ridiculous. Of course I’m not saying that Brexit was ‘only about’ trade. However there were plenty of false promises from the Remainers about the brave new world of trade deals with places other than the huge and infinitely more accessible EU market. How’s that working out?

Neither have I, or Swale to the best of my knowledge, ever argued that the EU was perfect. It has always been flawed but it sure as hell had a lot to offer and I for one felt more comfortable with our place in the world than I do now.

As for ‘champagne socialist’...you’re obsessed and completely illogical. So...because I live in a rural location and am not actually poor (‘near the bottom rung of the cash ladder’) I must be a ‘champagne socialist’. Really? I don’t think I’ve ever read such complete and utter nonsense on here before...not even from you.

But that is the issue.
It's the same as a black person saying, how can you speak for me. You are nothing like me.
That is true. I may not understand racism like a black person does, because I don't have to endure what they do.
This country is full of opinionated folks, with a comfortable living, who idly dismiss the complaints of the the not haves, as they don't see it as a problem. You for example, cannot possbly undertsand what a minimum wage worker on a Derby council estate suffers, as you don't experiance it.
Brexit is a classic example of this. We had Branson this week, screaming that the UK needs to be back in the EU in the next 10 years. Calling for it to happen without a referendum. How arrogant is that? Right after his boys toys trip into space.
So, my point is. I get fed up with folks preaching that they know best for the working class, when they clearly aren't working class. Yet pretend to be so. The current Labour leader is one, yet he gets his fuel from the indoctrination of kids in schools, then university.

Talking of which, I meant you to have a read of this. Its your favourite rag, so don't worry. Though I do find it worrying. https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-...g-views-labour

[MadAmster]

Isn't Branson and 2 other billionaires having their own personal space race proof that they don't pay anything like enough tax?

[swaledale]

Don’t be so ridiculous. Of course I’m not saying that Brexit was ‘only about’ trade. However there were plenty of false promises from the Remainers about the brave new world of trade deals with places other than the huge and infinitely more accessible EU market. How’s that working out?

Neither have I, or Swale to the best of my knowledge, ever argued that the EU was perfect. It has always been flawed but it sure as hell had a lot to offer and I for one felt more comfortable with our place in the world than I do now.

As for ‘champagne socialist’...you’re obsessed and completely illogical. So...because I live in a rural location and am not actually poor (‘near the bottom rung of the cash ladder’) I must be a ‘champagne socialist’. Really? I don’t think I’ve ever read such complete and utter nonsense on here before...not even from you.

I think you meant promises from Leavers rA!

Oh dear more utter bilge, trots out reasons for Brexit, which are at best vague concepts and misses the point completely that this "regained" sovereignty will cost those at the "bottom of the cash ladder" dearly! Still if you think an some vague principle important, which on closer examination isn't true, then I guess he won't be fussed that Brexit will do nothing to improve his life and explains why when ever he is asked, he is never able to come up with an actual Brexit benefit that is factual!

Should have paid more attention at school Thicky, rather than criticise those that were from a similar background to you who did and worked hard to get where they are today and I'd wager, have done more to help others from poorer backgrounds than you have ever done.

[ramAnag]

I think you meant promises from Leavers rA!

Oh dear more utter bilge, trots out reasons for Brexit, which are at best vague concepts and misses the point completely that this "regained" sovereignty will cost those at the "bottom of the cash ladder" dearly! Still if you think an some vague principle important, which on closer examination isn't true, then I guess he won't be fussed that Brexit will do nothing to improve his life and explains why when ever he is asked, he is never able to come up with an actual Brexit benefit that is factual!

Should have paid more attention at school Thicky, rather than criticise those that were from a similar background to you who did and worked hard to get where they are today and I'd wager, have done more to help others from poorer backgrounds than you have ever done.

Oops...absolutely right Swale, thanks for the correction. Must have OD’d on all that champagne.

[ramAnag]

But that is the issue.
It's the same as a black person saying, how can you speak for me. You are nothing like me.
That is true. I may not understand racism like a black person does, because I don't have to endure what they do.
This country is full of opinionated folks, with a comfortable living, who idly dismiss the complaints of the the not haves, as they don't see it as a problem. You for example, cannot possbly undertsand what a minimum wage worker on a Derby council estate suffers, as you don't experiance it.
Brexit is a classic example of this. We had Branson this week, screaming that the UK needs to be back in the EU in the next 10 years. Calling for it to happen without a referendum. How arrogant is that? Right after his boys toys trip into space.
So, my point is. I get fed up with folks preaching that they know best for the working class, when they clearly aren't working class. Yet pretend to be so. The current Labour leader is one, yet he gets his fuel from the indoctrination of kids in schools, then university.

Talking of which, I meant you to have a read of this. Its your favourite rag, so don't worry. Though I do find it worrying. https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-...g-views-labour

Tricky...I’ve never ever experienced a ‘black person’ say, ‘you are nothing like me...how can you speak for me?’

I know empathy and imagination aren’t your strong points, but you don’t have to be black to recognise that racism is wrong any more than you have to be female to oppose ***ism or be poor to be in favour of a more egalitarian society.

You get ‘fed up with folks preaching that they know best for the working class, when they clearly aren’t working working class...’. I’m not sure who that’s aimed at...but it’d be interesting to know where your beloved ‘man of the people’ - ‘Sir Nigel’ Farage fits into all that.

As regards the Guardian article...it’s an observational piece which further fuels two more of your obsessions. All I can say is that, in four years of qualifying and thirty years of teaching I found that, as in most walks of life, the vast majority of teachers simply wanted to get on with their lives. Despite working at the ‘sharp end’, the politically aware were actually a small (20%?) minority...and the ‘politically active’ far fewer.

[Andy_Faber]

Tricky...I’ve never ever experienced a ‘black person’ say, ‘you are nothing like me...how can you speak for me?’

I know empathy and imagination aren’t your strong points, but you don’t have to be black to recognise that racism is wrong any more than you have to be female to oppose ***ism or be poor to be in favour of a more egalitarian society.

You get ‘fed up with folks preaching that they know best for the working class, when they clearly aren’t working working class...’. I’m not sure who that’s aimed at...but it’d be interesting to know where your beloved ‘man of the people’ - ‘Sir Nigel’ Farage fits into all that.

As regards the Guardian article...it’s an observational piece which further fuels two more of your obsessions. All I can say is that, in four years of qualifying and thirty years of teaching I found that, as in most walks of life, the vast majority of teachers simply wanted to get on with their lives. Despite working at the ‘sharp end’, the politically aware were actually a small (20%?) minority...and the ‘politically active’ far fewer.

RA, sort of related to your last paragraph, was there a moment in your teaching life when you were instructed to tell your pupils ‘x is fact’ but you didn’t agree with ‘x’ and therefore made the message ‘many believe that ‘x’ is a fact and you must make up your own minds’. ?

[ramAnag]

RA, sort of related to your last paragraph, was there a moment in your teaching life when you were instructed to tell your pupils ‘x is fact’ but you didn’t agree with ‘x’ and therefore made the message ‘many believe that ‘x’ is a fact and you must make up your own minds’. ?

Not really, Andy. As predominantly an English teacher it’s very difficult to teach around texts such as ‘Oliver Twist’ and ‘A Kestrel for a Knave’ without pupils reaching certain conclusions about poverty and bullying. Likewise with Macbeth or Romeo and Juliet it is impossible not to touch on matters such as greed, avarice and tribalism.
There were times, in PSHE and under Thatcher during the Aids crisis, when we were not supposed to mention homos exuality, but that too was largely impossible and although no one I know would have ever actually advocated that particular s exual practice it certainly had to be mentioned and it had to be dealt with sensitively so basically no one took much notice of directives from ‘above’.
There were times when I had to adopt school guidelines that I didn’t necessarily completely agree with, and there were times when I found myself at odds with the LEA, but, sorry to disappoint, I can’t actually think of an occasion such as you refer to.

[MadAmster]

Fortunately for me, my teaching days were in a country with a much broader mind and things like LGBT issues were explained in mentor classes as were things like Autism.

[Andy_Faber]

Not really, Andy. As predominantly an English teacher it’s very difficult to teach around texts such as ‘Oliver Twist’ and ‘A Kestrel for a Knave’ without pupils reaching certain conclusions about poverty and bullying. Likewise with Macbeth or Romeo and Juliet it is impossible not to touch on matters such as greed, avarice and tribalism.
There were times, in PSHE and under Thatcher during the Aids crisis, when we were not supposed to mention homos exuality, but that too was largely impossible and although no one I know would have ever actually advocated that particular s exual practice it certainly had to be mentioned and it had to be dealt with sensitively so basically no one took much notice of directives from ‘above’.
There were times when I had to adopt school guidelines that I didn’t necessarily completely agree with, and there were times when I found myself at odds with the LEA, but, sorry to disappoint, I can’t actually think of an occasion such as you refer to.

I wasn’t trying to catch you out rA, just interested - in particular in ‘no one took much notice of directives from above’. I have a teacher friend (in fact she taught our daughters) who was bemoaning the fact that ‘directives’ and their onward dissemination are no longer open to being ignored, contradicted or qualified under pain of dismissal (which has happened and it’s been in the local press). It all sounds a bit ‘Police State’ to me

[ramAnag]

I wasn’t trying to catch you out rA, just interested - in particular in ‘no one took much notice of directives from above’. I have a teacher friend (in fact she taught our daughters) who was bemoaning the fact that ‘directives’ and their onward dissemination are no longer open to being ignored, contradicted or qualified under pain of dismissal (which has happened and it’s been in the local press). It all sounds a bit ‘Police State’ to me

I didn’t think you were. Perfectly reasonable question. MA’s answer provides some indication of why the arrival of the Blair Government was like a breath of fresh air for education. As for the rest...it’s a while now since I was at the ‘chalkface’...in fact I think I may now be ‘school phobic’.

[swaledale]

Tricky...I’ve never ever experienced a ‘black person’ say, ‘you are nothing like me...how can you speak for me?’

I know empathy and imagination aren’t your strong points, but you don’t have to be black to recognise that racism is wrong any more than you have to be female to oppose ***ism or be poor to be in favour of a more egalitarian society.

You get ‘fed up with folks preaching that they know best for the working class, when they clearly aren’t working working class...’. I’m not sure who that’s aimed at...but it’d be interesting to know where your beloved ‘man of the people’ - ‘Sir Nigel’ Farage fits into all that.

As regards the Guardian article...it’s an observational piece which further fuels two more of your obsessions. All I can say is that, in four years of qualifying and thirty years of teaching I found that, as in most walks of life, the vast majority of teachers simply wanted to get on with their lives. Despite working at the ‘sharp end’, the politically aware were actually a small (20%?) minority...and the ‘politically active’ far fewer.

I love Thicky's anecdotal evidence about Eu migration reducing wages when all the research actually shows that the effect was minimal, less than 1 -2%. The reason is that we actually have a negative birth rate in the UK so the replacement of the working population isn't happening because there are not enough youngsters.

That's the main reason there is a worker shortage - the other reasons such as the upskilling of jobs, requiring degrees - nurses ad the Police being two examples and increasing automation replacing basic manual work have zilch to do with the EU.

Still if he is right then it will be a wages bonanza for his "ilk" won't it? Mind you the same people will then moan that things cost more due to wage rises!! One only has to look at Norway and Sweden to see what a high wage economy looks like - funnily enough one country is in the EU and one is a member of the customs union and single market so accepts many EU rules!

Oh how the thick have swallowed the propaganda which the right wing elite ahve fed them, sad really but hey come on over when those benefits of Brexit, which you actually enjoy become apparent to you!

[Andy_Faber]

the thick

As I've said before, you truly hate your fellow humans don't you.

[ramAnag]

Hmmm...just received an emailed circular from no axe to grind Derbyshire Dales (Conservative) District Council regarding their refuse collection failures.
It places the blame on two or three factors...Covid, problems with wages...but overwhelmingly on a national shortage of 100,000 HGV drivers caused entirely by...Brexit.
To those who supported this monumental **** up, and as Swale suggested recently...do please let us all know when these Brexit benefits we were promised come to fruition.