OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I'm not entering your spat with Andy over exact use of words

My observations are simple

1. What someone may or may not have said 5 years ago (to cite your example) is history. No more, no less. There is nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it, short of hiring Stewey Griffin to take you back in time. So why the angst, why waste time and emotional energy in repeatedly whining about the outcomes of Brexit. They are what they are, get over it.

2. Rightly or wrongly people will be blaming brexit for their own inadequacies for the next decade or more. Its the perfect (and very simple) excuse, cannot be proven, cannot be disproven and there will always be an eager audience ready to take it all in. It is the scapegoat to end all scapegoats and until we stop blaming every ill in the country / economy / life on brexit and get on with things, we will remain frozen in time and unable to move forward.

I don't doubt the sincerity and passion with which you hold your views, but you seem like the Japanese soldier fighting on years after the war is over. What's done is done, the battle is lost, what value is there in constantly going back over the same old same old Johnson this Farage that ground? learn to cope, as Cochrane said: it will be better for your mental health!

It’s an odd, if ultimately we’ll intentioned argument, and there is a difference between the proverbial ‘battle’ and the equally proverbial ‘war’.

I don’t believe I’ve cited any particularly personal reasons for challenging Brexit and neither do I believe I’m ‘whining’ about it.
In exactly the same way as you or I might reasonably take (any) Government to task for failing to deliver or contradicting their manifesto...isn’t it right and proper to do so where Brexit is concerned?

I accept it’s early days and I accept that Covid has clouded everything (although that works both ways)...but the dark clouds on the horizon are getting ever nearer particularly where NI, refuse collection, crop picking, travel and food deliveries are concerned. This isn’t what we were promised...as many of us sought to say at the time.

[Trickytreesreds]

It’s an odd, if ultimately we’ll intentioned argument, and there is a difference between the proverbial ‘battle’ and the equally proverbial ‘war’.

I don’t believe I’ve cited any particularly personal reasons for challenging Brexit and neither do I believe I’m ‘whining’ about it.
In exactly the same way as you or I might reasonably take (any) Government to task for failing to deliver or contradicting their manifesto...isn’t it right and proper to do so where Brexit is concerned?

I accept it’s early days and I accept that Covid has clouded everything (although that works both ways)...but the dark clouds on the horizon are getting ever nearer particularly where NI, refuse collection, crop picking, travel and food deliveries are concerned. This isn’t what we were promised...as many of us sought to say at the time.

RA, you can point out/whinge/claim victory all you want for me.
No one I know thought this would go like a smooth river.
I have already said there is a lot to undo.
If anyone, including you didn't expect hiccups, then they are deluded.
It will take years to settle it down. It was 45 years of tying the knots.
I personally feel the same now, as I did in 2016.
The thought of travelling down that road, towards a EUSSR, still outweighs any shortage of apples or bin pick ups.
As for NI, the trouble is more an example of EU meddling than anything. Only one side wants it to be difficult.
That same meddling/bullying is being squeezed on Poland/Hungary now. Sanctions and fines called for
It really is unbelievable.

[Trickytreesreds]

I didn't think the EU liked referendums,?

https://foxhole.news/2021/07/22/luxembourg-minister-calls-for-eu-wide-referendum-on-hungarys-membership/?fbclid=IwAR39k_3DkUb4Nec7fYJEmh35ZLT-V6PrbvE2TXxp2AptPDTM8AFsmnRa79I

[Geoff Parkstone]

It’s an odd, if ultimately we’ll intentioned argument, and there is a difference between the proverbial ‘battle’ and the equally proverbial ‘war’.

I don’t believe I’ve cited any particularly personal reasons for challenging Brexit and neither do I believe I’m ‘whining’ about it.
In exactly the same way as you or I might reasonably take (any) Government to task for failing to deliver or contradicting their manifesto...isn’t it right and proper to do so where Brexit is concerned?

I accept it’s early days and I accept that Covid has clouded everything (although that works both ways)...but the dark clouds on the horizon are getting ever nearer particularly where NI, refuse collection, crop picking, travel and food deliveries are concerned. This isn’t what we were promised...as many of us sought to say at the time.

I thought the talked of hike in NI was due to covid rather than brexit - but as you say they do "cross cloud" one another. Anyway you and I probably wont have to pay it, unless they change the rules dramatically

[ramAnag]

H

RA, you can point out/whinge/claim victory all you want for me.
No one I know thought this would go like a smooth river.
I have already said there is a lot to undo.
If anyone, including you didn't expect hiccups, then they are deluded.
It will take years to settle it down. It was 45 years of tying the knots.
I personally feel the same now, as I did in 2016.
The thought of travelling down that road, towards a EUSSR, still outweighs any shortage of apples or bin pick ups.
As for NI, the trouble is more an example of EU meddling than anything. Only one side wants it to be difficult.
That same meddling/bullying is being squeezed on Poland/Hungary now. Sanctions and fines called for
It really is unbelievable.

Okay Tricky...I don’t think I’m whinging and I’m certainly not claiming victory, but here’re a few quotes for you from the Leave campaign.

‘There will be no downside to Brexit only a considerable upside’. David Davis. 14/7/16.

‘The free trade agreement that we do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history. Liam Fox. 20/7/16.

‘There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic’. Gove, Johnson and Patel. 1/6/16.

Sounded great didn’t it? Very attractive to the more gullible amongst us too. Still, I suppose some will just say ‘they didn’t say/mean that’...and as we live in a world where accusing someone of lying in Parliament is worse than the actual deed itself, I suppose we’ve got what we deserve.

How are they all going by the way? Those three promises/predictions that people voted for Brexit on the back of five years ago. There are lots of others of course but those three should keep you busy for a while.

[Trickytreesreds]

H

Okay Tricky...I don’t think I’m whinging and I’m certainly not claiming victory, but here’re a few quotes for you from the Leave campaign.

‘There will be no downside to Brexit only a considerable upside’. David Davis. 14/7/16.

‘The free trade agreement that we do with the EU should be one of the easiest in human history. Liam Fox. 20/7/16.

‘There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic’. Gove, Johnson and Patel. 1/6/16.

Sounded great didn’t it? Very attractive to the more gullible amongst us too. Still, I suppose some will just say ‘they didn’t say/mean that’...and as we live in a world where accusing someone of lying in Parliament is worse than the actual deed itself, I suppose we’ve got what we deserve.

How are they all going by the way? Those three promises/predictions that people voted for Brexit on the back of five years ago. There are lots of others of course but those three should keep you busy for a while.

lol, I could argue that all day.

Timescale/ who's being the awkward force with everything?

I will speak for myself. I knew there would be many hiccups, never expected any other.
I've told you before, I made my mind up interviewing school leavers and under 20's for low paid jobs.
Some were at the end of their tether trying to get a starter job, that was always being filled by an older east european.
Yes I get it. An employer will hire the best he can for the business.
But at what cost?
You're an ex teacher. Do you not feel that we are wasting our time educating youngsters, if we can't get them working/training as soon as they leave?
Well you can thank the EU for that and now you're seeing the pay off, with lack of home grown talent.
I will take my hat off to NCC, they paid incentives to give school leavers a full time job and apprenticeship.

They can do their worst, we'll survive.
I've just highlighted Poland and Hungary. It'll tear itself apart before long.

[ramAnag]

lol, I could argue that all day.

Timescale/ who's being the awkward force with everything?

I will speak for myself. I knew there would be many hiccups, never expected any other.
I've told you before, I made my mind up interviewing school leavers and under 20's for low paid jobs.
Some were at the end of their tether trying to get a starter job, that was always being filled by an older east european.
Yes I get it. An employer will hire the best he can for the business.
But at what cost?
You're an ex teacher. Do you not feel that we are wasting our time educating youngsters, if we can't get them working/training as soon as they leave?
Well you can thank the EU for that and now you're seeing the pay off, with lack of home grown talent.
I will take my hat off to NCC, they paid incentives to give school leavers a full time job and apprenticeship.

They can do their worst, we'll survive.
I've just highlighted Poland and Hungary. It'll tear itself apart before long.

Lol...congratulations...you’ve just won 1st prize in the ‘most evasive answer of the year’ competition.

What is it with you Brexit defenders? You’re either running off or just avoiding the question and answering your own.

[Trickytreesreds]

Lol...congratulations...you’ve just won 1st prize in the ‘most evasive answer of the year’ competition.

What is it with you Brexit defenders? You’re either running off or just avoiding the question and answering your own.

Long live the empire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Ralocq9uE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe0gt1QiAi0

PS I don't run from owt.
I'm just not always on a computer, but try to keep up with the phone.

[swaledale]

Lol...congratulations...you’ve just won 1st prize in the ‘most evasive answer of the year’ competition.

What is it with you Brexit defenders? You’re either running off or just avoiding the question and answering your own.

What utter *******s - at the time of the Eu referendum, the official unemployment rate was 4.5%, "full employment" is around 4% when you factor in the lame, the sick and those not seeking employment -i.e. full time mothers etc.

Back around 2015-16 I had two children leaving school, one went onto University the other went straight into an apprenticeship - he had a number of offers - typical comments from the guys running the firm were its refreshing to see a 16 year old who actually wants to work hard and understands what is required to get on in life - we have interviewed literally hundreds of applicants who on paper have the right skills and qualifications but clearly don't want a job which requires one to actually work!

I might add that whereas my lad secured a position close to home, there were lots of opportunities if he was prepared to travel up to 20 miles away, and thats another factor, many of those complaining they can't get a job or at least a soft cushy number which suits them, aren't prepared to leave their own small area where they live - its noticeable that most of those with better qualifications do move to get the job they want.

Thats always been the case to an extent, I left the small village i grew up for my first job which was 20 miles away and then moved areas completely as I got better jobs. Most of the people I grew up with didn't move and stayed doing crap jobs.

My experiences over the past 10 years recruiting people also bear out the fact that even for reasonable paid office jobs (I'm talking here between £20K - £30K) depending upon entry level, there were especially in the latter part of the decade very few applicants in the first place and those that did apply varied in standard - certainly many firms I worked with ended up employing EU workers because of the low level of applicants and due to the fact they were able to demonstrate a better work ethic.

Blaming membership of the EU because various Uk governments have neglected to focus education and or job creation in favour of a exploitative economy is a prime example of being utterly blind to reality.

As for Poland/Hungary being an example of EU disintegration, frankly celebrating the rise of right wing neo-fascist governments is lamentable and a dangerous example of what happens with countries that turn inward with nationalistic propaganda.

Yes we will survive, I mean Zimbabwe survives but is an economic and social basket case, really is that the Brexiteers mantra? yeah we know we were lied to and we won't actually see any tangible benefits from Brexit but we won the vote!!!

Also swallowing the Tories' lies about the EU, which after all negotiated in good faith with this utter lot of fools, only to receive threats, insults and examples of bad faith - is that the image you want the world to have of the UK? A crack pot country which ignores international treaties, whose word cannot be trusted, who reneges on promises, makes insulting comments and ill advised threats? We used to be better than that, but clearly it plays to a substantial part of the voters. Meanwhile the rich get richer and the poor remain where they were.

[ramAnag]

What utter *******s - at the time of the Eu referendum, the official unemployment rate was 4.5%, "full employment" is around 4% when you factor in the lame, the sick and those not seeking employment -i.e. full time mothers etc.

Back around 2015-16 I had two children leaving school, one went onto University the other went straight into an apprenticeship - he had a number of offers - typical comments from the guys running the firm were its refreshing to see a 16 year old who actually wants to work hard and understands what is required to get on in life - we have interviewed literally hundreds of applicants who on paper have the right skills and qualifications but clearly don't want a job which requires one to actually work!

I might add that whereas my lad secured a position close to home, there were lots of opportunities if he was prepared to travel up to 20 miles away, and thats another factor, many of those complaining they can't get a job or at least a soft cushy number which suits them, aren't prepared to leave their own small area where they live - its noticeable that most of those with better qualifications do move to get the job they want.

Thats always been the case to an extent, I left the small village i grew up for my first job which was 20 miles away and then moved areas completely as I got better jobs. Most of the people I grew up with didn't move and stayed doing crap jobs.

My experiences over the past 10 years recruiting people also bear out the fact that even for reasonable paid office jobs (I'm talking here between £20K - £30K) depending upon entry level, there were especially in the latter part of the decade very few applicants in the first place and those that did apply varied in standard - certainly many firms I worked with ended up employing EU workers because of the low level of applicants and due to the fact they were able to demonstrate a better work ethic.

Blaming membership of the EU because various Uk governments have neglected to focus education and or job creation in favour of a exploitative economy is a prime example of being utterly blind to reality.

As for Poland/Hungary being an example of EU disintegration, frankly celebrating the rise of right wing neo-fascist governments is lamentable and a dangerous example of what happens with countries that turn inward with nationalistic propaganda.

Yes we will survive, I mean Zimbabwe survives but is an economic and social basket case, really is that the Brexiteers mantra? yeah we know we were lied to and we won't actually see any tangible benefits from Brexit but we won the vote!!!

Also swallowing the Tories' lies about the EU, which after all negotiated in good faith with this utter lot of fools, only to receive threats, insults and examples of bad faith - is that the image you want the world to have of the UK? A crack pot country which ignores international treaties, whose word cannot be trusted, who reneges on promises, makes insulting comments and ill advised threats? We used to be better than that, but clearly it plays to a substantial part of the voters. Meanwhile the rich get richer and the poor remain where they were.

I think you may have ‘replied’ to the wrong post, Swale. I actually agree with what you’ve written, but imagine you were replying to Tricky.
Tbh I’ve almost given up on here, you either get bollux, told to ‘man up’ and pretend everything is alright, or complete denial even when the facts are made available in black and white, in return for intelligible posts.
Your penultimate paragraph sums it up for me...fool’s paradise.

[Andy_Faber]

What utter *******s - at the time of the Eu referendum, the official unemployment rate was 4.5%, "full employment" is around 4% when you factor in the lame, the sick and those not seeking employment -i.e. full time mothers etc.

Back around 2015-16 I had two children leaving school, one went onto University the other went straight into an apprenticeship - he had a number of offers - typical comments from the guys running the firm were its refreshing to see a 16 year old who actually wants to work hard and understands what is required to get on in life - we have interviewed literally hundreds of applicants who on paper have the right skills and qualifications but clearly don't want a job which requires one to actually work!

I might add that whereas my lad secured a position close to home, there were lots of opportunities if he was prepared to travel up to 20 miles away, and thats another factor, many of those complaining they can't get a job or at least a soft cushy number which suits them, aren't prepared to leave their own small area where they live - its noticeable that most of those with better qualifications do move to get the job they want.

Thats always been the case to an extent, I left the small village i grew up for my first job which was 20 miles away and then moved areas completely as I got better jobs. Most of the people I grew up with didn't move and stayed doing crap jobs.

My experiences over the past 10 years recruiting people also bear out the fact that even for reasonable paid office jobs (I'm talking here between £20K - £30K) depending upon entry level, there were especially in the latter part of the decade very few applicants in the first place and those that did apply varied in standard - certainly many firms I worked with ended up employing EU workers because of the low level of applicants and due to the fact they were able to demonstrate a better work ethic.

Blaming membership of the EU because various Uk governments have neglected to focus education and or job creation in favour of a exploitative economy is a prime example of being utterly blind to reality.

As for Poland/Hungary being an example of EU disintegration, frankly celebrating the rise of right wing neo-fascist governments is lamentable and a dangerous example of what happens with countries that turn inward with nationalistic propaganda.

Yes we will survive, I mean Zimbabwe survives but is an economic and social basket case, really is that the Brexiteers mantra? yeah we know we were lied to and we won't actually see any tangible benefits from Brexit but we won the vote!!!

Also swallowing the Tories' lies about the EU, which after all negotiated in good faith with this utter lot of fools, only to receive threats, insults and examples of bad faith - is that the image you want the world to have of the UK? A crack pot country which ignores international treaties, whose word cannot be trusted, who reneges on promises, makes insulting comments and ill advised threats? We used to be better than that, but clearly it plays to a substantial part of the voters. Meanwhile the rich get richer and the poor remain where they were.

Surprisingly, in amongst the usual bitterness some of that makes sense. But both your own and TTR's remonstrations are made redundant by the fact that in respect of UK's membership of EU, and to quote your own oft-used phrase, 'that ship has sailed'. I've seen GP point that out a number of times recently and for the most part be ignored, and that 'in denial' mentality seems to pervade through supposedly intelligent parts of UK society. Thank God most of such folk are armchair whingers/keyboard soothsayers rather than genuine players in industry

[swaledale]

I think you may have ‘replied’ to the wrong post, Swale. I actually agree with what you’ve written, but imagine you were replying to Tricky.
Tbh I’ve almost given up on here, you either get bollux, told to ‘man up’ and pretend everything is alright, or complete denial even when the facts are made available in black and white, in return for intelligible posts.
Your penultimate paragraph sums it up for me...fool’s paradise.

I've got Thicky on ignore, so generally only see his posts when quoted by another poster!

But you right pointless arguing with him, he has a view, its not based in reality and I suspect like a lot of Brexiteers, he wont admit he hadn't a clue what they were voting for and I reckon will wait a long time before they can point to one tangible (i.e. real) benefit to themselves that Brexit brings.

[Andy_Faber]

I've got Thicky on ignore, so generally only see his posts when quoted by another poster!

But you right pointless arguing with him, he has a view, its not based in reality and I suspect like a lot of Brexiteers, he wont admit he hadn't a clue what they were voting for and I reckon will wait a long time before they can point to one tangible (i.e. real) benefit to themselves that Brexit brings.

I'd guess that a goodly proportion would point to the eventual delivery of a stonking Conservative parliamentary majority as being a pretty real benefit

[Trickytreesreds]

I'd guess that a goodly proportion would point to the eventual delivery of a stonking Conservative parliamentary majority as being a pretty real benefit

This is the bit where clowns like Swale don't get it.
Democracy works like this. He/they, may not like the outcome, but he/they have to live with it. Shouting louder/insulting folks/behaving like a petulant child isn't going to change anything.
He doesn't like me, I get it and the feeling is mutual.
Which part of-
a vote to leave the EU
a vote to send the Brexit party to Brusels
a vote to empower the Tories with a massive majority

all over our membership of the EU doesn't he/they understand?
The arrogance is as bad as Jo Swinson, who proclaimed she and her party, would uni laterally overturn Brexit.She declared that she would be the next prime minister as her policy was what the people wanted.
The result was a whitewash for the DIMS and she lost her seat.

Right or wrong, its done. Stop crying and get on with it.

[ramAnag]

Do you remember how you crowed when Trump was elected, Tricky, and even when it looked as if he’d be easily re-elected last year?
Do you remember how Apartheid was once the law in South Africa, Mandela was imprisoned and then became President?
Do you remember how fox hunting was once an integral part of traditional British country life, and then suddenly it wasn’t...how Thatcher went from untouchable to unwanted in the space of a few years...and how Farage has somehow never been elected to Parliament?
It is...as you suggest...how ‘democracy works’. Screaming or ‘whining’ maybe what you, and one or two others who should know better, call it, but all it really is is sticking to your guns and standing up for what one believes to be right...and changing minds.