OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

MA: I wasnt actually referencing the post joining referendum, just saying that it took a long time to get used to and accomodate the changes wrought by joining the EU back then - eg about 5 years, with huge changes to agricultural policy and the introduction of VAT to name but two

It could be me but that probably isn't what most people on here understood from your wording. The major change was membership and it was 2.5 years when it was judged. VAT, CAP and CFP etc were small (ish?) parts of the very many changes brought about ny the major change i.e. membership.

I'll explain. You wrote [QUOTE] One that springs to mind was in 1972 when we joined the EU in the first place. Major incidents such as these take time to settle. [UNQUOTE]

No mention of "knock on effects" like VAT etc. Just "We joined the EU". Hardly surprising that I understood it the way I did.

[Trickytreesreds]

[QUOTE=MadAmster;39842817]It could be me but that probably isn't what most people on here understood from your wording. The major change was membership and it was 2.5 years when it was judged. VAT, CAP and CFP etc were small (ish?) parts of the very many changes brought about ny the major change i.e. membership.

I'll explain. You wrote

One that springs to mind was in 1972 when we joined the EU in the first place. Major incidents such as these take time to settle. [UNQUOTE]

No mention of "knock on effects" like VAT etc. Just "We joined the EU". Hardly surprising that I understood it the way I did.

I got it, because I still felt it in 1982

I started my engineering apprenticeship, having mainly been taught the metric system in school.
However all the old hands there, still worked in yards/feet/inches/pounds/imperial ton etc.

**** me, it was hard to backwards learn. So to me 5 years, is the least of your probalems in letting things settle down.

The treaty of accession to the European Economic Community (EEC), which the United Kingdom joined in 1973, obliged the United Kingdom to incorporate into domestic law all EEC directives, including the use of a prescribed SI-based set of units for many purposes within five years. By 1980 most pre-packaged goods were sold using the prescribed units. Mandatory use of prescribed units for retail sales took effect in 1995 for packaged goods and in 2000 for goods sold loose by weight. The use of "supplementary indications" or alternative units (generally the traditional imperial units formerly used) was originally to have been permitted for only a limited period. That period being extended a number of times due to public resistance, until in 2009 the requirement to ultimately cease use of traditional units alongside metric units was finally removed.

[Trickytreesreds]

If folks want to talk about hydraulics/pneumatics/ metal stress etc, I'm keyed in.
Finances, have never been my bag. I don't worry about costs etc, when something is broke. So the financial guys on here, know way better than me.

Now RA and Swale paint the apocalypse picture. Swale I believe has a better inside run on that than RA ever will.
But reading this, is it really all DADS ARMY, "we're doomed"?
I don't believe it is and I think GP is spot on. 5 years may still be too soon. Christ we had to wait 40 years for another ask, for the population to vent their opinion and that took some political arm twisting.

This doesn't paint things as awful, that's for sure.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-08-12/brexit-latest-u-k-trade-recovers-brits-stock-up-on-duty-free-booze-tobacco

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Trickytreesreds;39842938]

Now RA and Swale paint the apocalypse picture. Swale I believe has a better inside run on that than RA ever will.
But reading this, is it really all DADS ARMY, "we're doomed"?

‘Apocalypse picture’? I don’t think finding fault with Brexit is any such thing. Nor do I ever recall suggesting that ‘we’re doomed’. I simply believe we’d be a lot better off without it.

As for Swale having a better ‘inside run’ than me...I’ve little idea of what that means, but if you’re suggesting that Swale has a better grasp of the economic implications than me that’s almost certainly true...GP too. The intricacies of economics are not my speciality and I’ve never claimed otherwise.

I’m not sure what your ‘Treaty of Accession’ stuff written in bold is all about or what the point is you’re trying to make, but when was the last time your speed was measured in anything other than mph, your waist and collar sizes were measured in something other than inches and you called in at the pub for 0.568 of a litre?

[MadAmster]

Certainly 20 years ago, on building sites in both Holland and Germany, for some reason, windows were still in feet and inches. Don't know if they still are.

[MadAmster]

[QUOTE=Trickytreesreds;39842924]

It could be me but that probably isn't what most people on here understood from your wording. The major change was membership and it was 2.5 years when it was judged. VAT, CAP and CFP etc were small (ish?) parts of the very many changes brought about ny the major change i.e. membership.

I'll explain. You wrote

I got it, because I still felt it in 1982

I started my engineering apprenticeship, having mainly been taught the metric system in school.
However all the old hands there, still worked in yards/feet/inches/pounds/imperial ton etc.

**** me, it was hard to backwards learn. So to me 5 years, is the least of your probalems in letting things settle down.

The treaty of accession to the European Economic Community (EEC), which the United Kingdom joined in 1973, obliged the United Kingdom to incorporate into domestic law all EEC directives, including the use of a prescribed SI-based set of units for many purposes within five years. By 1980 most pre-packaged goods were sold using the prescribed units. Mandatory use of prescribed units for retail sales took effect in 1995 for packaged goods and in 2000 for goods sold loose by weight. The use of "supplementary indications" or alternative units (generally the traditional imperial units formerly used) was originally to have been permitted for only a limited period. That period being extended a number of times due to public resistance, until in 2009 the requirement to ultimately cease use of traditional units alongside metric units was finally removed.

Whether you "got it" or not isn't the point, is it? Read what he wrote. I possibly make the mistake of thinking that what people write is what they mean. However, he talks of "major incidents" not knock on effects of those major incidents. Going Metric on most things was a side effect of the major move of joining the EU.

[Trickytreesreds]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39843048]

I’m not sure what your ‘Treaty of Accession’ stuff written in bold is all about or what the point is you’re trying to make, but when was the last time your speed was measured in anything other than mph, your waist and collar sizes were measured in something other than inches and you called in at the pub for 0.568 of a litre?

Oh I see. You must have access then to a plentiful supply of BSW/BSF/ UNF/UNC.
All engineering drawings must come across your table in imperial as well then?
If you hadn't noticed, your speedometer is in MPH/KPH. Your clothing sizes are in inches/cm's

The point was smart arse. It is still an ongoing process. My wake up call, was schooling was done in metric and the real world still used imperial like the USA does. As a teacher you should be well aware of this anyway.
Nothing is a straight switch for the better / worse over night.

It takes time and I'm sure eventually we'll be completely on a metric system. It is after all easier to work with.

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Trickytreesreds;39843198]

Oh I see. You must have access then to a plentiful supply of BSW/BSF/ UNF/UNC.
All engineering drawings must come across your table in imperial as well then?
If you hadn't noticed, your speedometer is in MPH/KPH. Your clothing sizes are in inches/cm's

The point was smart arse. It is still an ongoing process. My wake up call, was schooling was done in metric and the real world still used imperial like the USA does. As a teacher you should be well aware of this anyway.
Nothing is a straight switch for the better / worse over night.

It takes time and I'm sure eventually we'll be completely on a metric system. It is after all easier to work with.

Thanks for such a dignified and well mannered response.

I wasn’t actually trying to be a ‘smart arse’ as you put it, but ‘still an ongoing process’...really?

You’re right of course about speedometers and clothing sizes, they are produced with dual methods of measurement but honestly, when was the last time you saw a metric road sign in this country and when was the last time you used the metric part of your speedo over here or actually bought your clothes measured in centimetres rather than inches?

I’ve never taught maths, for which the world should be eternally grateful, but as long ago as 1975, when I completed my final teaching practice, those who did were warned to expect to fail if they referred to imperial forms of measurement.

So almost half a century ago the educational directives from government and educationalists were clear as regards transfer to the more logical and precise metric system, but your ‘real world’ resisted it leading to a generation of numerically confused school leavers. All in all then it’s rather more complex than you make out, and as for ‘nothing is a straight switch for the better/worse overnight’...you possibly won’t remember it...but decimalisation certainly was.

[Andy_Faber]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39843286]

Thanks for such a dignified and well mannered response.

I wasn’t actually trying to be a ‘smart arse’ as you put it, but ‘still an ongoing process’...really?

You’re right of course about speedometers and clothing sizes, they are produced with dual methods of measurement but honestly, when was the last time you saw a metric road sign in this country and when was the last time you used the metric part of your speedo over here or actually bought your clothes measured in centimetres rather than inches?

I’ve never taught maths, for which the world should be eternally grateful, but as long ago as 1975, when I completed my final teaching practice, those who did were warned to expect to fail if they referred to imperial forms of measurement.

So almost half a century ago the educational directives from government and educationalists were clear as regards transfer to the more logical and precise metric system, but your ‘real world’ resisted it leading to a generation of numerically confused school leavers. All in all then it’s rather more complex than you make out, and as for ‘nothing is a straight switch for the better/worse overnight’...you possibly won’t remember it...but decimalisation certainly was.

More precise? Really? I've got to hear this one

the thing about currency decimalisation though was there was no choice for the public. Where there has been a choice there's been less success, even when pushed hard by whatever government happens to be in the hot seat at any given time, metric weights and measures being probably the most well known but not the only one, a good more recent example being DAB radio

I agree currency decimalisation was a change for the better but other 'progress' has thwarted its benefits, notably the rise of easy consumer credit and of 'virtual' money

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Andy_Faber;39843321]

More precise? Really? I've got to hear this one

the thing about currency decimalisation though was there was no choice for the public. Where there has been a choice there's been less success, even when pushed hard by whatever government happens to be in the hot seat at any given time, metric weights and measures being probably the most well known but not the only one, a good more recent example being DAB radio

I agree currency decimalisation was a change for the better but other 'progress' has thwarted its benefits, notably the rise of easy consumer credit and of 'virtual' money

Not my strong point, but as far as I remember the smallest unit on an old imperial ruler was 1/16th of an inch and since that’s bigger than its metric equivalent, the millimetre, doesn’t that make the metric ruler more precise? Even Tricky conceded the metric system is ‘easier to work with’.

Who mentioned ‘choice’ or that ‘decimalisation was a change for the better’? I was simply responding to TTR suggesting ‘nothing is a straight switch for the better/worse overnight’. Probably not quantifiable but certainly comparable, and decimalisation certainly happened overnight.

Not sure how you make a link between decimalisation and ‘the rise of easy consumer credit’. Is there one?

My only point was that we have made things unnecessarily confusing...e.g. we sell beer in pints but wine in litres...petrol too is sold in litres but we are more likely to talk about miles per gallon...most sports and athletic stadiums tend to have embraced metric measurement, but we’d probably direct someone to such a venue in miles and warn about speed traps in miles per hour. The list is endless and, despite you apparently thinking otherwise, I wasn’t actually trying to be contentious.

[Andy_Faber]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39843396]

The list is endless and, despite you apparently thinking otherwise, I wasn’t actually trying to be contentious.

I didn't think that to be honest

Metric and Imperial weights measures are equally precise but not equally simple to use - although in my brain they ARE equally simple to use, often alongside one another, just one of my few skills. More important when measuring things is not to use cheap (usually Chinese) tape measures, as the first centimetre/inch is often woefully inaccurate due to sloppy manufacturing. Thus endeth the amateur engineering lesson!

[swaledale]

[QUOTE=MadAmster;39843062]

Whether you "got it" or not isn't the point, is it? Read what he wrote. I possibly make the mistake of thinking that what people write is what they mean. However, he talks of "major incidents" not knock on effects of those major incidents. Going Metric on most things was a side effect of the major move of joining the EU.

It had **** all to do with the EU, going metric and decimalisation of the currency was needed given most of the rest of the world used those units. The fact that typically British we did it in a half arsed fashion is down to the inherent inability of governments to do things which are required but not necessarily popular at the time and the typical British compromise which suits nobody.

Still rather typical of Thicky to seize on something not down to the EU, but wholly in the hands of the UK government to use as a crtique of the EU!

But then he has swallowed all those myths perpetuated by successive UK politicians in blaming the EU for rules and regulations which in the majority of cases were put forward by the Uk in the first place or where slavishly adopted by a UK government when they weren't actually required to do so, or blaming the EU for not being able to do something when the UK government could have, but didnt want to.

Oh and the impact of Brexit will and are being felt immediately - because the economic effect of leaving the single market and customs union are immediate, just ask a fisherman! But also because the "oven ready" (more likely half baked) deal that the UK government agreed with the EU neglected a number of important trading, crime and security matters.

But then when ideological half wits are in charge, thats what one gets, a complete **** up!

[MadAmster]

Here in the EU, jeans are sold in inches for both inside leg and waist measurements. Same in the UK and USA isn't it?

One weird one is I put a 38"/40" chest waist length sheepskin up for sale. There is no size label in it. I mentioned the size in both inches and concerted to cm to avoid confusion. I got half a dozen replies asking what size it was. I replied in inches and cm. Next response was, yeah, but what size is it? S/M/L? I replied that it doesn't have that notation. I've told you how big it is and most people know how big they are... I got no further replies.

I advertised it a 2nd time, this time adding in that it is not foreseen of S/M/L size notations and the size is 38/40 or however many cm that is. I still got a couple of responses of "yeah, but what size....." No pleasing some folk

[ramAnag]

Here in the EU, jeans are sold in inches for both inside leg and waist measurements. Same in the UK and USA isn't it?

One weird one is I put a 38"/40" chest waist length sheepskin up for sale. There is no size label in it. I mentioned the size in both inches and concerted to cm to avoid confusion. I got half a dozen replies asking what size it was. I replied in inches and cm. Next response was, yeah, but what size is it? S/M/L? I replied that it doesn't have that notation. I've told you how big it is and most people know how big they are... I got no further replies.

I advertised it a 2nd time, this time adding in that it is not foreseen of S/M/L size notations and the size is 38/40 or however many cm that is. I still got a couple of responses of "yeah, but what size....." No pleasing some folk

Further confused by U.S. pints and gallons being significantly smaller than their UK equivalent, MA.

There’s also a tiny difference between the US and UK inch although I don’t think it’s responsible for the fact that over here I’m a 34 inch waist and over there I’m always a 33’’. More to do with flattering the invariably overweight US consumer I suspect.

[MadAmster]

Further confused by U.S. pints and gallons being significantly smaller than their UK equivalent, MA.

Not wanting to be too greedy they decided that pints and gallons would be the only things they have that weren't bigger and better