OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Ha, in my more uncharitable moments i do have certain thoughts. My Mum and Dad, and most of the over 75s, voted leave. But its them that are the ones moaning that buses don't turn up or services have been cancelled.

So there is part of me that thinks 'sap on' to use words i last used when i was about 10. You reap what you sow sometimes. They are still in denial and refuse to believe anything is the result of brexit though.

Lol...such is our age gap that I had to look up ‘sap on’. Never heard that, not even in my teaching days, but I ‘get’ what you’re saying 100%.
Unfortunately most of the ensuing comments aptly demonstrate what we’re currently up against in terms of debate on here, but I’ll settle for wishing all ‘peace and goodwill’, with an appropriate soupçon of ‘reap what you sow’, for certain politicians, world leaders and forum contributors.

[SithHappens]

Furniture or just Swedes?

Furniture shopping, and turnips.

[swaledale]

The facts showing that Brexit has no benefits are unambiguous and denying them looks increasingly like delusion or ideological obstinacy. This was illustrated last week by the PM himself whose defence of Brexit, when put on the spot during PMQ by the SNP’s Ian Blackford, seemed extremely unconvincing and unconvinced. He feebly suggested that he was still proud to have supported Brexit and that there had been benefits in the form of the world’s fastest vaccine roll-out, taking back control of our borders, reducing immigration, as well as ‘trade deals and deregulation.’

Except the vaccine roll out wasn't down to Brexit and immigration is actually higher than before Brexit!!

As for trade deals even Tory MP's have noted publicly that the Australian and New Zealand deals are favourable to the UK! In the case of the japan trade deal, the vol of trade has decreased! Mainly because we used to be the gateway to the Ei for Japan but that is no longer the case.

A trade deal with India is mooted, but again it will come at a cost, India is keen on increasing visas available for its nationals, oops there goes that promise on immigration.

In terms of controlling our borders, Brexit has made it worse, yes all legal routes have been stopped, BUT they now come via the channel and now we are no longer in the Eu, we can't return them easily to France which we could before.

From businesses no longer exporting, or setting up subsidiaries in the EU (taking jobs, trade and tax revenues away from the Uk (even Rees-Mogg did this, shifting part of his investment business, the one that still has strong financial interests in Russia, yes that one, to Dublin to avoid the effects of Brexit! Meanwhile fishermen can no longer sell the fish they catch into the EU and farmers are udner threat as cheap imports from NZ and Australia are allowed in.

Yes Brexit is the gift that keeps taking the UK down.

[SithHappens]

Yep, there seems to be no measurable positives from brexit. The defence of those who voted leave seems to be 'its not as bad as project fear suggested '

To be fair they are probably right. But that's like thinking you might have brain cancer and finding out you have a less severe liver cancer instead.

We are now being told the benefits might take 50 years, I just can't believe anyone voted leave thinking oh things will be better in 50 years when most of us will be dead and the ones to benefit haven't been born yet.

I'm no expert and certainly not clever enough to work it out. If someone could genuinely show me a pros and cons list demonstrating the benefits of brexit then fair play I'd be happy to put my hands up and say I'm wrong.

I hope I am wrong and will genuinely apologise for voting remain if its proven leaving was the right decision.

[ramAnag]

Sith...this thread was started by Man of Pride, who has long since disappeared, over six years ago largely as an attempt to initiate support for the prospect of Farage as PM.
Since then, rather like the individual himself, it has caused much bitterness and rancour on the forum and in that respect is reflective of what he/it has done to our country.

Another way in which it is reflective of the mood of the country, imo, is that there is now really only one remaining poster - Tricky - who is still convinced by Brexit. GP and Andy - who both, I think, voted Remain - love to make their mischief, try to undermine individuals and make all sorts of claims about democratic decisions having to be respected but, as I have repeatedly questioned (far, far too often...but still crucially)...if a democratic decision is based on misinformation and suggestions that were untrue - as many of Johnson and Farage’s claims undoubtedly were - does that decision still deserve to be respected?

When he actually gets around to answering the question of Brexit’s advantages all Tricky seems able to come up with is that it has helped us avoid a ‘United States of Europe’. This possibly represents the one area where you will find agreement between the invariably intelligent and well informed MA and the diehard Brexiteer...Tricky. Personally I can respect this one Brexiteer view although I generally disagree with it...even more so since Putin’s actions this year which, again imo, point to the need for an ever more united Europe...not one that leaves us in the UK more isolated and in avoidably hostile disagreement with our nearest neighbours.

If you look through the posts - and there’s approaching 8500 of them so don’t do it over Christmas it’ll leave you suicidal - imo Swale at his best (not his most enraged) provides the most informed insight into the intricacies and dangers of Brexit but that’s just my take, largely because I agree with him in virtually every way where this particular issue is concerned. You may have noticed...others don’t seem to like this.

Like you I don’t feel clever enough to work out the minutiae and I’ll apologise for my outspoken criticisms if it’s ever ‘proven leaving was the right decision’ but in the meantime, thanks for your intelligent and thoughtful contribution to a thread which had lost its way of late.

[Ramshank72]

This thread is absolutely indicative of society, nobody has changed their mind, anything that has happened has reinforced their opinion, and many, on both sides of the vote, are fed up of the bickering.
I will just wish you all a Happy Christmas, peace to all men.

[ramAnag]

This thread is absolutely indicative of society, nobody has changed their mind, anything that has happened has reinforced their opinion, and many, on both sides of the vote, are fed up of the bickering.

Not looking for a Christmas Eve spat Ramshank...and Happy Christmas to you too...but, if what you say is true, how do you explain the fact that, ‘more than three quarters of firms now say the Government’s post-Brexit trade deal with the EU has not helped their business in the last two years’ despite all the Brexit promises’?

This surely wasn’t what Brexit supporters envisaged and many minds must have been changed by the realities of the last few years.

[Andy_Faber]

This thread is absolutely indicative of society, nobody has changed their mind, anything that has happened has reinforced their opinion, and many, on both sides of the vote, are fed up of the bickering.
I will just wish you all a Happy Christmas, peace to all men.

…and yet as other posts show, the usual suspects here can’t quite make things unconditional, even at this time of year.

Without wanting to make your Christmas TOO happy you’ve been the best poster (balance,calmness,respect and a bit of humour) for some time so thanks and rock on

[Geoff Parkstone]

So you're GOATShank now. Is your surname Brady too?

[swaledale]

This thread is absolutely indicative of society, nobody has changed their mind, anything that has happened has reinforced their opinion, and many, on both sides of the vote, are fed up of the bickering.
I will just wish you all a Happy Christmas, peace to all men.

Not true, indications are that 63% now would vote to remain in the Eu and would favour closer ties such as rejoining the single market, customs union (this will happen within a decade as economic reality will dictate it). So apart from the minority of died in the wool gammons, who will never change their views anyway - I mean they have been going abroad for decades and complaining one can't get good British food there!!

As time moves on, the predominantly over 55 people who voted for some sort of return to the 1950's are passing on and hence their influence will wane.

Yes your right the Brexit voters would like to forget the debate, or more correctly they would like to see the illusive benefits of Brexit which will never materialise. Those who championed Brexit are desperately searching around for some excuses as to why Brexit hasn't delivered what was promised.

Businesses are absolutely at their wits end trying to cope with the paperwork that exporting to our nearest and biggest market the EU, involves. They are also struggling to to get staff and no matter how one spins things, higher wages won't suddenly magic non existent people out of the woodwork to do jobs.

I mean the economy is down by at least £400 million a week, our energy prices are the highest in Europe and magically the UK seems to miss the opportunity to trade without restrictions with 27 other nations more than the the 27 miss trading with us. Mind you that's not surprising, because checks and controls are largely only in place for goods exported from the UK to the EU! The UK government having quietly not introduced them for imports from the EU, knowing full well it would increase costs for UK consumers!!

With something as fundamental as Brexit, its not surprising that the debate will rumble on, especially as its now absolutely clear that most of the statements made by the leave campaign were false, pure lies. That by the way includes the claims of "regaining control", sovereignty (which we had never lost), controlling migration (its currently higher than before we left the EU!).

Going forward, eventually bit by bit as is happening now, it will be seen as a big mistake, a last crushing blow to the UK's self deception that it is somehow still the world power it once was. Yes we have significant political capital, as a stable country that operates on a sound legal basis - but the current government is doing its best to shatter that!!

In any case, as more and more evidence of how much a disaster Brexit has been for the UK, it beholds some of us to point out this to those who seem unaware.

[SithHappens]

We have been told its only a disaster because those negotiating the deal haven't got a good enough deal, and while I'm prepared to believe there might be some truth I've never seen detailed what we could or should have done different, other than those who claim the UK was in a position of strength and the EU should have been on their knees begging (which is rubbish)

Still waiting for someone to state a benefit of brexit and/or a good reason for voting leave (other than offering a defence of its not as bad as project fear suggested)

Still we have being charged for a visa and finger printed on entry to the EU to look forward to from next year.

[Andy_Faber]

Still we have being charged for a visa and finger printed on entry to the EU to look forward to from next year.

I think you need to provide some evidence for those two assertions Sith

[Trickytreesreds]

We have been told its only a disaster because those negotiating the deal haven't got a good enough deal, and while I'm prepared to believe there might be some truth I've never seen detailed what we could or should have done different, other than those who claim the UK was in a position of strength and the EU should have been on their knees begging (which is rubbish)

Still waiting for someone to state a benefit of brexit and/or a good reason for voting leave (other than offering a defence of its not as bad as project fear suggested)

Still we have being charged for a visa and finger printed on entry to the EU to look forward to from next year.

??? CHARGED HOW AND WHEN?

I was in Germany 2 weeks ago. I wasn't charged anything?

[swaledale]

I think you need to provide some evidence for those two assertions Sith

Although there are no visa requirements for UK citizens, travellers will need to apply for ETIAS from November 2023. The European Travel Information and Authorisation System is being introduced to improve safety and security across the Schengen Area.

There will be a fee for the ETIAS, but it will be valid for 3 years for multiple visits, essentially like the USA visa waiver scheme.

I mean its not that big a deal, but it is an additional document you require, when previously one could just go to an EU country and stay as long as one liked, even work there!

Compared to the economic damage Brexit is causing, its hardly worth being bothered about. But hey I should worry, Brexit gave me an unexpected bonus, helping firms set up HQ's or subsidiaries in an Eu country to avoid the ****e I knew was coming down the line.

I feel slightly guilty about the jobs, income and tax revenues the UK has lost, but on the other hand my pension is much better than it would have been. Thank you Nigel Farage xx

[Geoff Parkstone]

It's ironic that someone so opposed to Brexit should nonetheless line his own pockets from it and yet still claim a moral high ground of being right. A person true to himself would have turned such work down - let alone crow about it repeatedly