OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Fair enough thats your opinion, but actually the tide is turning and when one can see how its negatively impacting the country, then shrugging ones shoulders doesn't really cut it!

Excuse the use of shrugging shoulders, see above. However from what you’ve revealed I think you HAVE ‘got on with it’ in fact marginally benefitted from ‘it’ so I’ll ask you the same question as rA, what have you actually done other than whinge on to us lot?

I’ve never questioned any of your little updates but I’ll also ask, how is the tide actually turning? And is that incremental backtracking or the rA dream of fully rejoining EU?

[ramAnag]

Excuse the use of shrugging shoulders, see above. However from what you’ve revealed I think you HAVE ‘got on with it’ in fact marginally benefitted from ‘it’ so I’ll ask you the same question as rA, what have you actually done other than whinge on to us lot?

I’ve never questioned any of your little updates but I’ll also ask, how is the tide actually turning? And is that incremental backtracking or the rA dream of fully rejoining EU?

Not sure I’ve ever described my ‘dream’ as ‘fully rejoining the EU’...although I do firmly believe it was bloody daft to leave.

The tide is certainly turning on here...we’re now down to your shoulder shrugging and only Tricky half heartedly defending it.
As for elsewhere? Seems to be a general consensus that, at best, Brexit is more trouble than it’s worth...at worst...the exercise in self harm that Remainers have consistently described.

[swaledale]

Perhaps me and my like need some guidance - tell me what you’ve actually done other than have a whinge with a lot of old blokes. If anything, then I applaud you, if nothing, then I’m just six years ahead of you in helping to forge a new reality.

Shrugging of shoulders wasn’t the best form of words on my part, simply ‘accepted’ would do

The car and house thing dont help your argument as both are to a greater or lesser extent ‘buyer beware’ (when bought privately) and in my experience there’s ALWAYS a surprise to be found when buying a property, and I/we (you might have guessed by now) just suck it up and get it sorted, ultimately to our benefit. As I said earlier, it’s an attitude of mind

Which to be fair is largely the British (English?) way? So as the NHS gets hammered into the ground, to create a situation where the "only" alternative is privatisation, where NHS dentists are as rare as yeti, where austerity, strangling services was the answer to rich bankers ripping us off, where putting up interest rates to combat inflation, even though its doing nowt of the sort as the inflation isn't caused by wage rises, is making some very well off and where lying and falsehoods has become endemic within government, the answer is suck it up?

Yep that's largely the case for the unenlightened, others however through support of political parties who represent change or through making sure the discussion of whats happening is held ensure that it isn't dropped from the general discourse.

Little things can have bigger effects and there is a considerable body of people in this country who are working towards reversing the harm done by Brexit and more widely by 13 years of Tory disastrous Tory rule.

How can "ordinary" people change this, well by thinking about who they vote for for a start. But even keeping the discussion going on Forum's like this is helpful. Some of us are active politically it all helps. Apathy and pretending nothing has changed achieves nowt.

Well it does, as those Germans who "sucked it up and got on with it" as Hitler took power and gradually implemented his aims. They enabled what happened next. For those that think the comparison is overblown, look at the groups like the ERG, and other shadowy think tanks and "research groups" that manoeuvre behind the scenes.

Consider the actions taken by this government, to many who think it doesn't affect them, well not now but it will, increasing authoritarian laws on strikes, peaceful demonstrations, the scapegoating of immigrants and asylum seekers, the obvious and borderline corruption, these and more are straight out of the play book of right wing authoritarian regimes.

Of course people adapt and carry on with life, I've been in countries where the corruption and poverty is appalling, yet people do carry on their day to day lives, I wonder how they do that, but at the same time, when they do respond when the time is right for change.

Yep collaboration and acquiescing to authoritarianism is an "attitude of mind" its enabled many a despot achieve their aims in history and its not a very good look!

[Andy_Faber]

Which to be fair is largely the British (English?) way? So as the NHS gets hammered into the ground, to create a situation where the "only" alternative is privatisation, where NHS dentists are as rare as yeti, where austerity, strangling services was the answer to rich bankers ripping us off, where putting up interest rates to combat inflation, even though its doing nowt of the sort as the inflation isn't caused by wage rises, is making some very well off and where lying and falsehoods has become endemic within government, the answer is suck it up?

Yep that's largely the case for the unenlightened, others however through support of political parties who represent change or through making sure the discussion of whats happening is held ensure that it isn't dropped from the general discourse.

Little things can have bigger effects and there is a considerable body of people in this country who are working towards reversing the harm done by Brexit and more widely by 13 years of Tory disastrous Tory rule.

How can "ordinary" people change this, well by thinking about who they vote for for a start. But even keeping the discussion going on Forum's like this is helpful. Some of us are active politically it all helps. Apathy and pretending nothing has changed achieves nowt.

Well it does, as those Germans who "sucked it up and got on with it" as Hitler took power and gradually implemented his aims. They enabled what happened next. For those that think the comparison is overblown, look at the groups like the ERG, and other shadowy think tanks and "research groups" that manoeuvre behind the scenes.

Consider the actions taken by this government, to many who think it doesn't affect them, well not now but it will, increasing authoritarian laws on strikes, peaceful demonstrations, the scapegoating of immigrants and asylum seekers, the obvious and borderline corruption, these and more are straight out of the play book of right wing authoritarian regimes.

Of course people adapt and carry on with life, I've been in countries where the corruption and poverty is appalling, yet people do carry on their day to day lives, I wonder how they do that, but at the same time, when they do respond when the time is right for change.

Yep collaboration and acquiescing to authoritarianism is an "attitude of mind" its enabled many a despot achieve their aims in history and its not a very good look!

Although your points were general rather than Brexit related I was with you til paragraph 5 which is plain wrong and would get you laughed out of most non-partisan discussions, your argument frays a bit after that. And You don’t actually say what you are doing, it’s all generalities. I’m not trying to cause trouble, just interested.

[swaledale]

Although your points were general rather than Brexit related I was with you til paragraph 5 which is plain wrong and would get you laughed out of most non-partisan discussions, your argument frays a bit after that. And You don’t actually say what you are doing, it’s all generalities. I’m not trying to cause trouble, just interested.

Perhaps you would explain why you think para 5 is plain wrong? Then I may be able to expand why it isn't.

I think the reason why you think the argument frays a bit is because you actually don't see the connection, but I'll wait for your reasoning about para 5 before expanding on that.

[Andy_Faber]

those Germans who "sucked it up and got on with it" as Hitler took power and gradually implemented his aims. They enabled what happened next.

OK lets have a look at those aims, in their initial and fairly tame form, as issued by Hitler in 1920:

The union of all Germans to form the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination enjoyed by the nations.

Good start for you, that could be read as Brexit

Equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations; and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

No evidence that UK government (or any UK political party) want to scrap any peace treaties

Land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people and colonization for our superfluous population.

That sounds likegood old fashioned imperialism/expansionism. No evidence exists, in fact HMG and previous administrations have made the opposite their practise over the last seven decades

None but members of the nation may be citizens of the state. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed may be. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.

Substitute the UK whipping boys Muslims for Jews. Never going to happen, long-standing HMG policy of allcolours is the opposite, albeit with some awful goofs in application along the way. Any disenfranchising based on race, creed, colour, blah blah, would see the perps out of power and probably worse

Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to foreign laws.

See above

The right of voting on the state's government and legislation is to be enjoyed by the citizen of the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capability.

See above

Tthe state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to nourish the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) must be excluded from the Reich.

See above

All immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be required immediately to leave the Reich.

Not in anyone's manifesto as far as I'm aware and no party's intention whether overt or covert, would see rioting in the streets including the white British population and the removal of the government from power

All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and obligations.

Laudible but was never going to happen, elites existed under Hitler just as they do now. Call tht one a draw


The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically.

In other words, weed out those who caan't and won't work so no welfare state. Not current HMG policy

The activity of individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the whole for the benefit for the general good.
Actually more progressive than to current practise, very communist in approach

We demand therefore:

Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes.
Not a policy of any UK party, aimed at Jews

Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
laudible although lets not forget most of the money lenders were Jews andalong-standing failure of all colours of UK parties.

In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice of life and property that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. Therefore, we demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

Not in current manifestos

nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts).

Not in current manifestos

profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.

Not in current manifestos. aimed to marginalise by ethnicity (Jews)

an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

laudible and an improvement on any UK administration's actions over the years (if not promises)

the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

Aimed at marginalising Jews, not aware that marginalising business success by race, ethnicity etc is on anyones agenda in the UK

land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

Again aimed at Jews but no such policy evident to punish any race, creed etc in UK

struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

Return of the death penalty? Not aware of any UK partyintentions on that one

substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.

Not aware of any significant move on this, I guess you could argue British v EU law but there so much more

The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

laudible but intended in conjunction with the above to disenfranchise Jews. Not aware that UK goverment has a similar policy

The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

Call this one a draw, Hitler used this as a cloak to recruit the young into the party, successive UKgovts have promised the same aims for good but failed

abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
Conscription. Not a current policy

legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that:

a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race;
b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the state to be published. They may not be printed in the German language;
c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications or any influence on them and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.

Not only not UK party policy but IMO beyond their powers to control it

freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework.

A veiled intention to abolish Judaism. No such policy in UK which is renowned as multi-faith (in policy if not in popular feeling)

THE COMMON INTEREST OVER INDIVIDUAL INTEREST[13]

For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Centralisation. The opposite of UK's increasing devolution

So ignoring the fact that some of the early points here morphed into the slaughtering of millions of innocents, there's not a lot comparable even between the 'Hitler-light' of 1920, before he REALLY got his skates on, and UK policy either now or for the last few decades

[Andy_Faber]

The tide is certainly turning on here...

No its not. Yourself, Swale, GP, TTR, MA and I haven't moved an inch (millimetre) in six years, Ramshank and Sithappens are newcomers who's opinion appears already to have been formed before joining our happy throng.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Not so much a happy throng as much a duprass (karass of two) in Bokononism

[Andy_Faber]

Not so much a happy throng as much a duprass (karass of two) in Bokononism

Obscure

[ramAnag]

No its not. Yourself, Swale, GP, TTR, MA and I haven't moved an inch (millimetre) in six years, Ramshank and Sithappens are newcomers who's opinion appears already to have been formed before joining our happy throng.

We’ll have to differ on this one, AF. The vociferous pro Brexit contingent...eg Southern and Angry etc have disappeared...presumably no longer able to defend their cause.
The ‘shoulder shruggers’...eg you and GP, who voted Remain but have since defended Brexit - and been responsible for much of the argument and many of the subsequent approaching nine thousand (!) posts - have changed.
Only a few days ago GP, perhaps inadvertently, placed Brexit in the same category as Covid and Putin, you can’t get much more damning than that and there is now just one (TTR) determined defender of the Brexit shambles on the forum.
Swale and I have been nothing if not consistent, as has MA, although he has a slightly more nuanced take on proceedings.
I don’t think the views of Ramshank and Sith should be dismissed because they are comparative ‘newcomers’. I suspect Ramshank is a ‘returnee’ anyway, but maybe their different views reflect the age gap as I think Sith is our youngest member.

Beyond that it seems Triz has been the real soothsayer. In post #46 of the 8769 on 5/7/16 he wrote, ‘...the next decade is going to be rough’.
I doubt even he could have predicted a pandemic and Putin - though you never know with Triz - but with 65% or so of that decade now behind us...he was absolutely right.

[swaledale]

Ah I see where your coming from, the only problem is I didn't mention Hitler's aims or attempt to compare those to this government.

Possibly I wasn't clear enough, that my main point is that Hitler succeeded due to the attitude of the "Good Germans" accepting what was happening and in part thinking either there is nothing I can do about it but just accept it and move or actually agreeing with most of what was said and ignoring the actions that may be they weren't entirely comfortable with, but thought "it doesn't affect me" so I'm not bothered.

I was pointing out that your attitude of "suck it up" and carry on, can have consequences, often ones that take a time to become apparent. Now it can be perhaps excused in those that don't have the intellectual capacity to rationalise what is happening, or whose lives are so ****, that they just want someone to promise things will get better. The connection between educational attainment, deprivation etc. and the 2016 vote has been clearly identified.

That the Tories (and others on the right) have used this tactic to further their aims (and the aims of the elite who back them) with no real intent to improve these peoples lives beyond that necessary to keep them voting Tory (or UKIP) has been obvious for decades.

The other comparison that can be made, is that of right wing elites who remain in the background but manipulate politicians to implement policies that favour them and keep the left down.

This was certainly the case in Germany where the right wing elites saw Hitler as a useful stooge to remove left wing and communist influence. Unfortunately they underestimated his ability and capability for manipulating power through both political and violent means. The left as is often the case. were too split and obsessed with ideology to resist.

If one looks at the play book of right wing leaders and parties including Trump and Bolsenaro in Brazil, there are some real worrying factors at play, I mean who would ever have thought a US President would refuse to hand over power in a respectful way? Yet millions of Amerians and many Republicans still support him. Who would have believed that a UK Prime Minister would attempt to porogue parliament illegally? Or would demonstrate and willingness to blatantly ignore rules, accepted standards and repeatedly lie?

So no I wasn't suggesting that the Tory government are currently on a par with Hitler, I was suggesting that Hitler was enabled by the "good germans" who didn't protest and the right wing elites who backed him initially. But how he got to where he did and the fall out from that (a world war) wasn't envisaged by most of the players in the first decades of his ascent to power.

Just one other point, isn't acceptance (as it seems by many people) that people in the UK, the 5th richest country in the world, of food banks and people unable to heat their homes, unable to access health care, a callous and disorganised approach to asylum seekers and thousands dying an appalling situation?

[swaledale]

We’ll have to differ on this one, AF. The vociferous pro Brexit contingent...eg Southern and Angry etc have disappeared...presumably no longer able to defend their cause.
The ‘shoulder shruggers’...eg you and GP, who voted Remain but have since defended Brexit - and been responsible for much of the argument and many of the subsequent approaching nine thousand (!) posts - have changed.
Only a few days ago GP, perhaps inadvertently, placed Brexit in the same category as Covid and Putin, you can’t get much more damning than that and there is now just one (TTR) determined defender of the Brexit shambles on the forum.
Swale and I have been nothing if not consistent, as has MA, although he has a slightly more nuanced take on proceedings.
I don’t think the views of Ramshank and Sith should be dismissed because they are comparative ‘newcomers’. I suspect Ramshank is a ‘returnee’ anyway, but maybe their different views reflect the age gap as I think Sith is our youngest member.

Beyond that it seems Triz has been the real soothsayer. In post #46 of the 8769 on 5/7/16 he wrote, ‘...the next decade is going to be rough’.
I doubt even he could have predicted a pandemic and Putin - though you never know with Triz - but with 65% or so of that decade now behind us...he was absolutely right.

There is another point rA, which is that what people say and especially what they admit to on a forum such as this, is not necessarily indicative of what they actually believe.

The fact is as time goes on and as demonstrated by the events now over the NI Protocol, the lies and utter incompetence/dishonesty over Brexit and the deal subsequently done is becoming more obvious all the time and Begret is being felt by many who voted leave.

In the end, reality will sink in, the Uk will find a fudge that enables access to the single market and probably the Customs Union.

[Andy_Faber]

Ah I see where you’re coming from, the only problem is I didn't mention Hitler's aims

Sorry but you did and that was the whole basis of my reply

You said:
‘ as Hitler took power and gradually implemented his aims ‘

[Andy_Faber]

We’ll have to differ on this one, AF. The vociferous pro Brexit contingent...eg Southern and Angry etc have disappeared...presumably no longer able to defend their cause.
The ‘shoulder shruggers’...eg you and GP, who voted Remain but have since defended Brexit - and been responsible for much of the argument and many of the subsequent approaching nine thousand (!) posts - have changed.
Only a few days ago GP, perhaps inadvertently, placed Brexit in the same category as Covid and Putin, you can’t get much more damning than that and there is now just one (TTR) determined defender of the Brexit shambles on the forum.
Swale and I have been nothing if not consistent, as has MA, although he has a slightly more nuanced take on proceedings.
I don’t think the views of Ramshank and Sith should be dismissed because they are comparative ‘newcomers’. I suspect Ramshank is a ‘returnee’ anyway, but maybe their different views reflect the age gap as I think Sith is our youngest member.

Beyond that it seems Triz has been the real soothsayer. In post #46 of the 8769 on 5/7/16 he wrote, ‘...the next decade is going to be rough’.
I doubt even he could have predicted a pandemic and Putin - though you never know with Triz - but with 65% or so of that decade now behind us...he was absolutely right.

….and that, in a nutshell, is why Brexit happened and why the US had four years of Trump. Those who shout loudest and longest dont always prevail, your argument is thus flawed but yes we’ll just have to differ on this

Edit on a wider point my understanding is that a) liberal voices in general are louder than conservative ones, certainly in U.K, and b) the population gets more conservative as if ages. I’ve seen reports on this but can’t find any ti provide provenance to my post

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don't believe either Southern or Angry's disappearance from the forum have anything to do with being unable to defend Brexit! Neither individual ever backed down from an opinion and they certainly wouldn't leave the forum over such an issue! That's frankly preposterous.

Also please don't put words in my mouth. Brexit COVID and Putin have unquestionably had short term impacts on our current economic malaise. How short term remains to be seen. But I have said all along that Brexit is, in my view, a long game. There were always going to be short term disadvantages, and this we have seen. If a longer term benefit emerges remains an unknown. I'm not convinced, but most thinking Brexiteers - and I know a few - remain confident that it will come good, economically, in time .

Meanwhile the USE spectre has been eased into history.

So has my mind been changed in the last 3 years. No, it is what it is. I was a fence sitter who eventually fell off the fence onto the losing side. I got back up, dusted myself off and endeavour to make the best of the hand we've been dealt.

On the other hand, the Duprass twins were always on the losing side and continue to whine on. Have any of us, regardless of attitude, done anything to change anyone else's minds in this microcosm of opinion makers? I doubt it, either here or in the real world.

You may call it shoulder shrugging, I may call it pragmatism. The reality is that Brexit has had no material impact on my lifestyle, standard of living or day to day activities. Hence I see no point in angst ridden reactions to the odd minor inconvenience.

So in summary - 9000 posts have not changed my thoughts an iota. No more so than conspiracy theorists influenced my thoughts on COVID vaccines. Other people may have changed their views, maybe even because of your rhetoric and argument, rA, but they were probably fence sitters that leant towards the winning side in 2016