Election Year or Fear!

[ramAnag]

Agreeing with GP, massively misreported, I only know folk who went through Facebook but they had a peaceful time, there are yobbos to the fore at any rally, I could offer vids of a number of ?‘riots?’ at pro Palestine rallies but if y?’all were interested in seeing both sides of a story you?’d have already sought them out

Who mentioned riots, yobbos or denied that there had been violence at pro Palestine rallies? This ‘both sides of the story’ thing of yours is becoming a bit of an obsession Mr. F.
Not entirely sure how you’re in a position to know it was ‘massively misreported’ if you only know via ‘folk on Facebook’ either.

[MadAmster]

Well, I hope my sources on this are correct. If not, I am 100% certain I will be given the facts by at least one of my fellow posters.

400 odd arrests at one rally recently, 900 odd at another.

Last weekend's protest which attracted somewhere between 150K and 3M people, dependent on the source, only saw 20 odd arrests. There are reports of only 8 of those arrests being "right wing yobbos". The other 2/3 were from a "counter protest" of various left wing types.

How come the difference? No idea. However, thinking out loud, could it be that the UK left is more violent than the right? Could it be that the majority of the 1300 arrested at the other two protests were nicked for words either spoken or on a placard? Is holding a placard saying something to the effect of "stop the genocide" really a terrorist offence as it seems that's the Law many of them were arrested under?

Has the UK government gone too far?

I think they probably have. People arrested for saying "stop the genocide" whilst at other "gatherings", people have waved ISIS and similar flags and chanted things meaning "death to the infidel" and, to them, we are the infidel, yet those people weren't arrested?

The whole shebang is crazy, IMO. If some of the no longer visible common sense was used, the vast majority of the arrests would never have occurred, again, IMO. Is it police acting under political instructions? Have the police lost the plot or is it the government that's lost it? I'm leaning heavily towards it being HMG that's in cloud cuckoo land on this and the police are merely following orders.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Lol. Wasn?t even in the country, your honour. Bad choice of words.

I just meant, despite the persona you often adopt on here, I?m not sure you?re a natural fit where the likes of Robinson or Musk are concerned. Hope not anyway.

I have always been a fan of Muskie ever since Deputy Dawg first appeared

[swaledale]

Well, I hope my sources on this are correct. If not, I am 100% certain I will be given the facts by at least one of my fellow posters.

400 odd arrests at one rally recently, 900 odd at another.

Last weekend's protest which attracted somewhere between 150K and 3M people, dependent on the source, only saw 20 odd arrests. There are reports of only 8 of those arrests being "right wing yobbos". The other 2/3 were from a "counter protest" of various left wing types.

How come the difference? No idea. However, thinking out loud, could it be that the UK left is more violent than the right? Could it be that the majority of the 1300 arrested at the other two protests were nicked for words either spoken or on a placard? Is holding a placard saying something to the effect of "stop the genocide" really a terrorist offence as it seems that's the Law many of them were arrested under?

Has the UK government gone too far?

I think they probably have. People arrested for saying "stop the genocide" whilst at other "gatherings", people have waved ISIS and similar flags and chanted things meaning "death to the infidel" and, to them, we are the infidel, yet those people weren't arrested?

The whole shebang is crazy, IMO. If some of the no longer visible common sense was used, the vast majority of the arrests would never have occurred, again, IMO. Is it police acting under political instructions? Have the police lost the plot or is it the government that's lost it? I'm leaning heavily towards it being HMG that's in cloud cuckoo land on this and the police are merely following orders.

The estimates vary between 110k and 150K MA, depending upon which respected sources one uses.

I do think the Government has created a situation with its recent legislation that has put the Police in an impossible position, whether this is determining which tweets or other public utterances should be pursued or in the case of the now proscribed Palestine Group, whether pensioners holding placards should be hauled off and arrested. These are decisions that the average Police officer isn't qualified or often experienced enough to make.

The hate speech issue is particularly difficult area and one liable to misinterpretation and of course each side whether left, right or centre will interpret it according to their own prejudices.

My own personal view is that where there is clear incitement to violence or threats to kill or injure etc.(especially in the context of there being riots, then there is a prima fascia case for arrest and prosecution. But merely being "nasty" or vitriolic about a person or group doesn't merit such action.

There is a case for stronger regulation of the owners of platforms like X, where its clear they are actively promoting and platforming views which most reasonable people would find offensive or even dangerous. Regrettably governments, not just the UK's, are way behind the curve with social media and online platforms and whilst the online safety bill goes some way to address this issue in certain areas it does not go far enough. People do need protecting from themselves and IMO, once Musk had made the statements he did, the government should have taken action against X. I know they won't because they fear upsetting the US and the retribution that would follow from the US government but free speech is only free to an extent, in a civilised society there do have to be social norms over whats acceptable or not.

AS for the number of arrests at the far right demo, I'd say that was the Police being sensible, they only went after those being violent, giving what they were facing, it would ahve been very difficult to go after others that may well ahve been committing offences, withut risking further injuries and indeed sparking more violence.

[MadAmster]

Hopefully, they've videos of some of the people committing offences and are now trying to find out who they are and where they live in order to arrest, charge and bring to court for a fair trial.

... and yes, it is, indeed, the hope that kills.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Swale: by "far right demo" are you referring to the Unite the Kingdom March? Is your cateforisation of such not in itself inflammatory hate speech? Its akin to calling the pro Palestine protest marches "pro holocaust supporters|" or the like.

There will doubtless have been a core of right extremists involved but from the first hand reports I have heard the majority of those in attenance were normal generally apolitical people who are sick to the back teeth of govenrnmental (in their view) prioritisation of illegal immigrants over the indigineous population. I wouldnt term that belief far right but rather wanting the laws of the land to be enforced.

Perhaps I'm a little different in that I have no problem with controlled legal immigration but I wil not tolerate people entering the country illegally and being pandered to.

On a slightly less controversial note a mate of mine is doing a charity cross channel swim later this month (England to France). it seems that he has been warned of the normal dangers of this involving high seas, seasickness, hypothermia and jellyfish. This year they have been warned (during the night part of the swim) of the added dangers of being mowed down by small boats with no ID or lights....

[ramAnag]

Swale: by "far right demo" are you referring to the Unite the Kingdom March? Is your cateforisation of such not in itself inflammatory hate speech? Its akin to calling the pro Palestine protest marches "pro holocaust supporters|" or the like.

There will doubtless have been a core of right extremists involved but from the first hand reports I have heard the majority of those in attenance were normal generally apolitical people who are sick to the back teeth of govenrnmental (in their view) prioritisation of illegal immigrants over the indigineous population. I wouldnt term that belief far right but rather wanting the laws of the land to be enforced.

Perhaps I'm a little different in that I have no problem with controlled legal immigration but I wil not tolerate people entering the country illegally and being pandered to.

On a slightly less controversial note a mate of mine is doing a charity cross channel swim later this month (England to France). it seems that he has been warned of the normal dangers of this involving high seas, seasickness, hypothermia and jellyfish. This year they have been warned (during the night part of the swim) of the added dangers of being mowed down by small boats with no ID or lights....

All credit to your mate but has it occurred to you that those dangers - high seas, seasickness, hypothermia and jellyfish - are the very same dangers faced by the poor, terrified and desperate people on the small inflatable boats?

I don’t think you’re so different. No reasonable person should have a problem with controlled legal immigration and no one actually supports the concept of illegal immigration. See, we agree!

The fact is though, that through little other than an accident of birth, you and I have never had to face such challenges and hostilities. I don’t think the arrivals are exactly ‘pandered to’ either, but until the ‘haves’ of this world accept greater internationally organised responsibility for the ‘have nots’ then the problem is unlikely to go away.

[ramAnag]

Swale: by "far right demo" are you referring to the Unite the Kingdom March? Is your cateforisation of such not in itself inflammatory hate speech? Its akin to calling the pro Palestine protest marches "pro holocaust supporters|" or the like.

There will doubtless have been a core of right extremists involved but from the first hand reports I have heard the majority of those in attenance were normal generally apolitical people who are sick to the back teeth of govenrnmental (in their view) prioritisation of illegal immigrants over the indigineous population. I wouldnt term that belief far right but rather wanting the laws of the land to be enforced.
.

I know you’ll think I’m defending Swale (he doesn’t need it) and extending my love affair with him (too ridiculous for words), but you question that it was a ‘far right demo’.
I’d suggest you look at the principle organisers before reaching a conclusion. If you can’t find them I’ll list them. They are all of a far right persuasion and in that respect it was, unquestionably, a ‘far right demo’.
Tbh I’m quite surprised there were as few as there were there. From the little I’ve read the absolute maximum number of participants was between 100,000 and 150,000 and I’m sure I, possibly you too, were on bigger student demos in London in the 1970’s
It really isn’t that big a number, especially in these troubled times, but it was, without a shadow of doubt, organised by those on the far Right.

[Andy_Faber]

Well, I hope my sources on this are correct. If not, I am 100% certain I will be given the facts by at least one of my fellow posters.

400 odd arrests at one rally recently, 900 odd at another.

Last weekend's protest which attracted somewhere between 150K and 3M people, dependent on the source, only saw 20 odd arrests. There are reports of only 8 of those arrests being "right wing yobbos". The other 2/3 were from a "counter protest" of various left wing types.

How come the difference? No idea. However, thinking out loud, could it be that the UK left is more violent than the right? Could it be that the majority of the 1300 arrested at the other two protests were nicked for words either spoken or on a placard? Is holding a placard saying something to the effect of "stop the genocide" really a terrorist offence as it seems that's the Law many of them were arrested under?

Has the UK government gone too far?

I think they probably have. People arrested for saying "stop the genocide" whilst at other "gatherings", people have waved ISIS and similar flags and chanted things meaning "death to the infidel" and, to them, we are the infidel, yet those people weren't arrested?

The whole shebang is crazy, IMO. If some of the no longer visible common sense was used, the vast majority of the arrests would never have occurred, again, IMO. Is it police acting under political instructions? Have the police lost the plot or is it the government that's lost it? I'm leaning heavily towards it being HMG that's in cloud cuckoo land on this and the police are merely following orders.

Roughly agree on the numbers although my observations were worldwide

Also agree the police/ the powers that be (in UK) are losing the plot OR they have been instructed on a different plot to that which we would expect

[Geoff Parkstone]

All credit to your mate but has it occurred to you that those dangers - high seas, seasickness, hypothermia and jellyfish - are the very same dangers faced by the poor, terrified and desperate people on the small inflatable boats?

I don’t think you’re so different. No reasonable person should have a problem with controlled legal immigration and no one actually supports the concept of illegal immigration. See, we agree!

The fact is though, that through little other than an accident of birth, you and I have never had to face such challenges and hostilities. I don’t think the arrivals are exactly ‘pandered to’ either, but until the ‘haves’ of this world accept greater internationally organised responsibility for the ‘have nots’ then the problem is unlikely to go away.

As regards your first para, the perils are not dissimilar, save that he isnt in a boat all the time. The difference I suppose is that he is raising money for charity whereas they are committing a crime.

I take your point re "accident of birth" and "humanitarian" but Im likely less tolerant of charitable than you. Come to the country legally and submit you papers for official asylum (yes I know its diffiicult) then I dont mind. Sneak in under cover of darkness, disappear into the grey economy (and those employers do need sanctioning for supporting that network) and sap the system then Im on the side of the jellyfish.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I know you’ll think I’m defending Swale (he doesn’t need it) and extending my love affair with him (too ridiculous for words), but you question that it was a ‘far right demo’.
I’d suggest you look at the principle organisers before reaching a conclusion. If you can’t find them I’ll list them. They are all of a far right persuasion and in that respect it was, unquestionably, a ‘far right demo’.
Tbh I’m quite surprised there were as few as there were there. From the little I’ve read the absolute maximum number of participants was between 100,000 and 150,000 and I’m sure I, possibly you too, were on bigger student demos in London in the 1970’s
It really isn’t that big a number, especially in these troubled times, but it was, without a shadow of doubt, organised by those on the far Right.

I think there is a big difference between "who organises" and "who goes" in outlook. For sure the front men were of the extreme right persuasion but those who went were unquestionably more of a mixed (dare I say balanced) bag. As I said before, I was talking to two guys who went, neither are extreme and both voted labour at last election but are sick of what labour has done. I think they voted labour as a protest versus the mess the Tories created, but very much not extremists - just frustrted individuals.

My memories of student marches of youth are way smaller than that. But i was in Birmingham and twenty minutes in we mostly descended on a local pub to ease the tired legs!! I recall a "Workers, students, unite.Smash the social contrick" protest one Saturday but most people headed off to Villa Park in short order....

[SithHappens]

I understand that those involved don't want to be labeled as far right thugs just because a minority are, but then it's only right immigrants aren't all labeled as criminals and rapists.

Anyway...On the subject of far right thugs and criminals and rapists from abroad, I wonder how things are going at Windsor today.

[ramAnag]

I think there is a big difference between "who organises" and "who goes" in outlook. For sure the front men were of the extreme right persuasion but those who went were unquestionably more of a mixed (dare I say balanced) bag. As I said before, I was talking to two guys who went, neither are extreme and both voted labour at last election but are sick of what labour has done. I think they voted labour as a protest versus the mess the Tories created, but very much not extremists - just frustrted individuals.

Just out of (genuine) interest. What is it they say that Labour have done that turns them towards supporting a convicted criminal loudmouth.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Just out of (genuine) interest. What is it they say that Labour have done that turns them towards supporting a convicted criminal loudmouth.

Essentially viewd as having achieved nothing. Not addressed any of the election promises, u turns on own policies - particularly benefits clampdowns, in effect taxing the working man through taxing employers, done nothing to control illegal immigration, kow towing to minorities, sleaze and back handers - no different from Tories

[Geoff Parkstone]

I understand that those involved don't want to be labeled as far right thugs just because a minority are, but then it's only right immigrants aren't all labeled as criminals and rapists.

Anyway...On the subject of far right thugs and criminals and rapists from abroad, I wonder how things are going at Windsor today.

"I understand that those involved don't want to be labeled as far right thugs just because a minority are, but then it's only right immigrants aren't all labeled as criminals and rapists."

Quite right Sith - but then all illegal immigants are by definition criminals as they break the law by simply arriving here