Election Year or Fear!

[SithHappens]

Not even opposition but name a shadow cabinet. I think we should have a ram inn version of the avengers, ill be iron man. Will serve as much purpose as reforms cabinet.

[swaledale]

Sorry to bring the discussion full circle but I disagree with that even more. The Ukraine flag united folk, the Palestine flag causes division, its being used as a cover-all anti (small c) conservative marker IMO

Your right re Ukraine Flag, though there are some (in the minority) who disagree with that (including it seems our "friends" in the US Government, Serbia and Hungary.

Your perspective is clearly that of a ( small c) conservative, I'm sure you will correct me if my assumption is wrong. There is no evidence, apart from the bile and howls of rage from right wing commentators in the media and online, that flying the Palestinian Flag or displaying support for the Palestinian cause is the preserve of the left.

I don't see how you can argue that some people on the Yaxley-lennon "freedom march" or those who fly the Union jack or England Flag were not necessarily right wing, but just people who wanted to express their concern about certain issues, but then claim the opposite in respect of flying the Palestinian flag or being anti the activities of the currrent Israeli government.

If it causes division, which IMO is overhyped by the same right wing agitators, I'd rather be on the side that opposes the oppression and killing of thousands of people simply because of their race or nationality, than with those who think its acceptable. Unless I've got you wrong, I think you would too.

[Andy_Faber]

Your right re Ukraine Flag, though there are some (in the minority) who disagree with that (including it seems our "friends" in the US Government, Serbia and Hungary.

Your perspective is clearly that of a ( small c) conservative, I'm sure you will correct me if my assumption is wrong. There is no evidence, apart from the bile and howls of rage from right wing commentators in the media and online, that flying the Palestinian Flag or displaying support for the Palestinian cause is the preserve of the left.

I don't see how you can argue that some people on the Yaxley-lennon "freedom march" or those who fly the Union jack or England Flag were not necessarily right wing, but just people who wanted to express their concern about certain issues, but then claim the opposite in respect of flying the Palestinian flag or being anti the activities of the currrent Israeli government.

If it causes division, which IMO is overhyped by the same right wing agitators, I'd rather be on the side that opposes the oppression and killing of thousands of people simply because of their race or nationality, than with those who think its acceptable. Unless I've got you wrong, I think you would too.

My assertion is that both/all sides are equally culpable, although I stand by the Ukraine v Palestine comment. I'm applying a balanced view. More conservative than yourself yes, but a balanced view

We agreed earlier in the thread that calling him 'Yaxley-Lennon' was a bit childish, you must have missed the memo.

[Andy_Faber]

My gripe is that yet again, this Government don't seem to have "dotted the I's and crossed the "T's" before deciding to do something. If the legal advice is correct, which one assumes it is, why the **** wasn't that established BEFORE making announcement about cancelling the elections? Starme ris ****ing lawyer after all! On the face of it, cancelling the elections is a sensible idea. Plus as they are in Government, Labour could have introduced a quick bill to pass legislation to do this in any case!

Very poorly judged, makes me wonder who is actually calling the shots in HMG, even if KS didn't know the law he should know that it needed to be referred to the law. I find it odd (although no doubt correct) that HMG, rather than Labour, have to pay Reform's legal costs)

Your point re Reform is right though, some/much of their popularityatpresent hasn't been tempered by them actually being in charge of much. If they win big in May then **** up, they're gonners

[ramAnag]

We agreed earlier in the thread that calling him 'Yaxley-Lennon' was a bit childish, you must have missed the memo.

Tbf Andy, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is his name. He only adopted the Tommy Robinson alias because of his admiration for an infamous Luton Town hooligan of that name.

[Andy_Faber]

Tbf Andy, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon is his name. He only adopted the Tommy Robinson alias because of his admiration for an infamous Luton Town hooligan of that name.

When we had this discussion earlier I offered a number of examples where forum members didn’t (or wouldn’t) adopt the same approach and as I recall you accepted that point. Remember Jesse Burns? Or Malc Little? Harry Webb? It’s just a silly habit to refer to people by a non-familiar name.

[ramAnag]

When we had this discussion earlier I offered a number of examples where forum members didn?’t (or wouldn?’t) adopt the same approach and as I recall you accepted that point. Remember Jesse Burns? Or Malc Little? Harry Webb? It?’s just a silly habit to refer to people by a non-familiar name.

Not really worth arguing about imo. The silliest habit to me is naming yourself after a local football hooligan but, weirdly, I’m guessing his motivation was some sort of identity protection…or perverse hero worship.

[swaledale]

My assertion is that both/all sides are equally culpable, although I stand by the Ukraine v Palestine comment. I'm applying a balanced view. More conservative than yourself yes, but a balanced view

We agreed earlier in the thread that calling him 'Yaxley-Lennon' was a bit childish, you must have missed the memo.

Fair enough, IMO its a right of centre view, rather than balanced, but I guess that depends upon your perspective. My view is that saying both sides are equally culpulable is demonstrably false, the Palestinians haven't invaded anybody's homeland and slaughtered civilians, they aren't taking over by violence and intimidation land thats been occupied by other people for centuries.

White Christians have and indeed in parts of the world still are, comitting atrocities, nobody is labelling them as representative of all white people of the Christian faith!

Do I take it that if, for arguments sake, a foreign power, had invaded and attacked part of the UK, that you'd view any form of resistance by UK citizens, that involved violence as unacceptable?

I've always found it ironic, that a nation founded by people who suffered unimaginable persecution and genocide, is currently governed by a government that apprently think doing the same to another ethnic group is acceptable.

Mm so calling somebody by their given name is "childish"? I did miss the memo, but I'm slightly curous as to your apparent concern over someone, who on all the evidence is a nasty little grifting rabble rouser, funded by equally disreputable people whose views certainly aren't small c conservative?

The guy's adoptive name, is both an attempt to hide his background and portray himself somehow as being "in touch" with the average person. Both false, if somebody is spreading falsehoods, hatred and hiding behind a fake name, then I'm really not sure why calling them by thier original name is an issue?

I refuse to give the guy any credence and that involves calling him Yaxley-Lennon.

[swaledale]

Very poorly judged, makes me wonder who is actually calling the shots in HMG, even if KS didn't know the law he should know that it needed to be referred to the law. I find it odd (although no doubt correct) that HMG, rather than Labour, have to pay Reform's legal costs)

Your point re Reform is right though, some/much of their popularityatpresent hasn't been tempered by them actually being in charge of much. If they win big in May then **** up, they're gonners

The real issue, judging by Farage's reaction whenever difficult questions are asked is his achilles heel. he is very thin skinned and under the pressure and attention he will inevitably get, he is likely to say something that really makes him look like the nasty pompous **** he is. Plus even at the press conference introducing his "team", he still held court, even ansering questions that were asked of them, I can't see him working with a team, its all about him always has been. Oh well it will be entertaining I'm sure.

[Andy_Faber]

Fair enough, IMO its a right of centre view, rather than balanced, but I guess that depends upon your perspective. My view is that saying both sides are equally culpulable is demonstrably false, the Palestinians haven't invaded anybody's homeland and slaughtered civilians, they aren't taking over by violence and intimidation land thats been occupied by other people for centuries.

White Christians have and indeed in parts of the world still are, comitting atrocities, nobody is labelling them as representative of all white people of the Christian faith!

Do I take it that if, for arguments sake, a foreign power, had invaded and attacked part of the UK, that you'd view any form of resistance by UK citizens, that involved violence as unacceptable?

I've always found it ironic, that a nation founded by people who suffered unimaginable persecution and genocide, is currently governed by a government that apprently think doing the same to another ethnic group is acceptable.

Mm so calling somebody by their given name is "childish"? I did miss the memo, but I'm slightly curous as to your apparent concern over someone, who on all the evidence is a nasty little grifting rabble rouser, funded by equally disreputable people whose views certainly aren't small c conservative?

The guy's adoptive name, is both an attempt to hide his background and portray himself somehow as being "in touch" with the average person. Both false, if somebody is spreading falsehoods, hatred and hiding behind a fake name, then I'm really not sure why calling them by thier original name is an issue?

I refuse to give the guy any credence and that involves calling him Yaxley-Lennon.

Again para by para

Maybe I didn’t explain well, by both sides I meant Palestine flag wavers on one side and Cross of St George on the other. Both are a mix of the devout, the misled and the agitators. Note that Palestinians have invaded a homeland and slaughtered civilians, just on a smaller scale

Whataboutery

The ‘unite the kingdom’ is partly about being invaded, albeit not by a state, I’m sure you’re aware there’s a widespread sentiment on those lines? I wouldn’t advocate violence in that case, so no you’re wrong on that one

Yes ironic and beyond ‘disappointing’

(Last three paras) I accept your rationale, but I still think it’s childish (in anyone). I think Zak Polanski is as big a menace as Robinson in a more subtle and insidious manner but I’ll respect his right to change his name. Just different standards I guess

[ramAnag]

Again para by para

Maybe I didn?’t explain well, by both sides I meant Palestine flag wavers on one side and Cross of St George on the other. Both are a mix of the devout, the misled and the agitators. Note that Palestinians have invaded a homeland and slaughtered civilians, just on a smaller scale

Whataboutery

The ?‘unite the kingdom?’ is partly about being invaded, albeit not by a state, I?’m sure you?’re aware there?’s a widespread sentiment on those lines? I wouldn?’t advocate violence in that case, so no you?’re wrong on that one

Yes ironic and beyond ?‘disappointing?’

(Last three paras) I accept your rationale, but I still think it?’s childish (in anyone). I think Zak Polanski is as big a menace as Robinson in a more subtle and insidious manner but I?’ll respect his right to change his name. Just different standards I guess

Your point about Zak Polanski changing his name is a fair one. I guess he just thought Zak Polanski sounded cooler than David Paulden. It does but it’s all a bit daft.

Beyond that, you may disagree with the Greens as much as the EDL - albeit for entirely different reasons - but the two leaders are hardly on the same scale as far as ‘menace’ is concerned are they? Only one has found fame and relative fortune out of peddling hatred.

[swaledale]

Again para by para

Maybe I didn’t explain well, by both sides I meant Palestine flag wavers on one side and Cross of St George on the other. Both are a mix of the devout, the misled and the agitators. Note that Palestinians have invaded a homeland and slaughtered civilians, just on a smaller scale

Whataboutery

The ‘unite the kingdom’ is partly about being invaded, albeit not by a state, I’m sure you’re aware there’s a widespread sentiment on those lines? I wouldn’t advocate violence in that case, so no you’re wrong on that one

Yes ironic and beyond ‘disappointing’

(Last three paras) I accept your rationale, but I still think it’s childish (in anyone). I think Zak Polanski is as big a menace as Robinson in a more subtle and insidious manner but I’ll respect his right to change his name. Just different standards I guess

Lets get the facts correct, HAMAS invaded Israel and killed civilians. HAMAs is no more representative of the majority of Palestinians, than the IRA (in its former guise) was representative of Irish catholics., or Trump and MAGA are of the majority of Americans. Thats demonstrated by the fact that HAMAS knew what Israel's response would be, but clearly had no thought for the lives of the Palestinians.

Palestinians generally are caught between a rock and hard place, intimidated and treated appallingly by Israel, whilst intimidated and killed/tortured if they dissent by by HAMAS who "govern" them.

I'm aware that certain parts of the population (mostly led by irresponsible politicians and a certain tax exile) have made false claims that the UK is being invaded. How widespread that view is, is difficult to judge accurately, but lets say around 25% hold that view either seriously, or have been led to believe that because of "lazy" thinking.

You have in fact alluded to a an antisemetic trope ironically, which is the “great replacement theory,” whose origins date back to the late 19th century, argues that Jews and some Western elites are conspiring to replace white Americans and Europeans with people of non-European descent, particularly Asians and Africans. I'm quite surprised that you seem happy to perpetuate that trope.

Again its ironic that the places where people seem most worked up about this "subtle invasion" as you not so delicately term it, live in places where on the whole the percentage of immigrants is very low, often under 1%. Which rather suggests that their fear is the result of the rhetoric, rather than than any lived experience.

I accept a fear and distrust of "others" is to an extent a normal human response where people have very limited knowledge and experience of any culture or nationality outside their own. But thats not a reason to pander to it, I distinctly recall back in the late 1970's, recruiting the first black employee at a 100% white organisation and overhearing other employess who were by no means uneducated, saying "She is just like us isn't she?"!

I don't dispute that there should be an honest debate about immigration, which ought to be balanced as to the pro's and con's, insinuating that the Uk is being subtly invaded is not true or helpful.

I remain suspicious of Zak Polanski, though I think your assertion that he is on a par with Yaxley-lennon is very wide of the mark. I rather think your "balanced" view has slipped and perhaps your prejudice is coming to the fore?

He isn't being funded by very dubious, very wealthy right wing agitators. he isn't spreading false racist and xenophobic messages of hate, he hasn't as far as I am aware been convicted of any criminal activity or been associated with acts of violence and intimidation.

He is openly campaigning in a democratic manner, with policies, some of which are clear, others rather opaque in terms of how they would be achieved, I'm sceptical of many but then thats true for any political party, there is always some things one approves of, and others not.

He is offering something different, whether you or anybody else approves is a matter for their personal choice.

[Andy_Faber]

Your point about Zak Polanski changing his name is a fair one. I guess he just thought Zak Polanski sounded cooler than David Paulden. It does but it’s all a bit daft.

Beyond that, you may disagree with the Greens as much as the EDL - albeit for entirely different reasons - but the two leaders are hardly on the same scale as far as ‘menace’ is concerned are they? Only one has found fame and relative fortune out of peddling hatred.

Daft/childish, same territory, it just detracts from whatever point is being made IMO.

Not sure about the second bit - I disagree with the EDL’s methods whatever their beliefs, I accept the Green’s right to have an opinion, just don’t agree with some of them, and increasingly so - and whatever the ‘green leaning’ extremists are called, I’m against them as much as EDL.

I consider Polanski to be a ‘menace’ to a greater part of the population than Farage. I’ve got no view on relative ‘fortune

[Ram Pant]

Whatsisname(s) got an apprenticeship (aircraft engineer) 600 people applied for, and they took four people on". He qualified in 2003 after five years of study, but lost his job when he was convicted of assaulting an off-duty police officer in a drunken argument for which he served a 12-month prison sentence.

The Tommy Robinson from whom Yaxley took his name was a prominent member of the Luton Town MIGs MIGs famous for using Stanlet knives), a football hooligan crew which follows Luton Town. The pseudonym successfully hid his identity and criminal history until the connection was uncovered in July 2010 by Searchlight magazine. He has also used the names Andrew McMaster, Paul Harris, Wayne King, and Stephen Lennon.

It seems Tommy Ten Names is a slight exaggeration. It's only Seven Names... so far. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Wayne King pseudonym was chosen because he prefers verbs to nouns

[ramAnag]

Daft/childish, same territory, it just detracts from whatever point is being made IMO.

Not sure about the second bit - I disagree with the EDL?‚?’s methods whatever their beliefs, I accept the Green?‚?’s right to have an opinion, just don?‚?’t agree with some of them, and increasingly so - and whatever the ?‚?‘green leaning?‚?’ extremists are called, I?‚?’m against them as much as EDL.

I consider Polanski to be a ?‚?‘menace?‚?’ to a greater part of the population than Farage. I?‚?’ve got no view on relative ?‚?‘fortune

Perhaps you should have as it’s the bit that matters most. Robinson/Y-L (whoever) is said to be worth between 1 and 3 million GBP. His income has been derived from merchandise, speaking engagements and slightly mysterious international backers. Profit out of hatred.

Disappointing that you differentiate between the EDL’s methods and beliefs. Both are equally sinister and repellent imo.

At the risk of raising the ‘B word’ issue again, but in terms of ‘menace’, can be sure that Polanski has never damaged as many of the UK population as Farage managed with B****t. Of course Farage has, in the process, lined his own pockets even more substantially than TR/Y-L.