Election Year or Fear!

[Trickytreesreds]

You mentioned train drivers in post #1469. Nobody else had. I wrote a post on part of a train driver's responsibility in reply to your post. Do you not understand that THAT is how forums (and in person conversations) work?

Get out of bed the wrong side this morning, did you? I mean, Pizza guy on a moped? You cannot be serious, however, you probably are...

The pizza guy was a jest in response to the hilarity of your post.

Are you trying to tell me, that a train driver, sat in a cab. With a radio, computer control system, an external mangement system and signal system, has more life endagering moments than an artic driver, ploughing down a motorway?
PEN PUSHERS, YOU'RE ALL THE SAME. Know nothing about physics, mechanics, risks, skill levels

[ramAnag]

I could say the say the same with the corruptable young minds having to deal with your bonkers "softy, we surrender" attitude.
I learned through an apprenticeship, to know every machine under my jurisdiction, inside and out.
Let me tell you, those 12 levers became second nature, whilst moving back and forwards and probably watching a cutting head at the same time.
So yes, I was being disrespectful, in the fact that a train drivers job has been trumpeted up, beyond belief.
Also, if you have no idea how a modern day jet fighter complexity compares to operating a train, then god help you. Refer back to line 1
Just to help you.
A train driver requires a couple of GCSE's
A pilot minimum, To become an RAF pilot, one requires passing grades in maths, English and at least three other GCSE subjects and at least two A-level results of a Grade C or higher. A fighter pilot? Lets just say a lot more

Lol! I probably deserved your initial retaliation for taking the piss in the first place, but I’ve no idea what my ‘softly we surrender attitude’ means. What/who was I meant to be getting these ‘corruptable young minds’ to ‘surrender’ to?

You were talking about rates of pay and it was actually that which I was referring to when I said I have no idea how they compare.

As regards train drivers…they do seem to me to have a hell of a lot of responsibility for an enormous number of lives which makes me reluctant to refer, as you did, to them as ‘plebs’.
Of course you’re probably correct that the job is becoming increasingly automated however I’d remind you that, on those relatively rare tragic occasions when there is a serious crash, ‘driver error’ seems to be a common first port of call amongst accident investigators.

[ramAnag]

Anyone know where page 148 is?

[swaledale]

Lol! I probably deserved your initial retaliation for taking the piss in the first place, but I’ve no idea what my ‘softly we surrender attitude’ means. What/who was I meant to be getting these ‘corruptable young minds’ to ‘surrender’ to?

You were talking about rates of pay and it was actually that which I was referring to when I said I have no idea how they compare.

As regards train drivers…they do seem to me to have a hell of a lot of responsibility for an enormous number of lives which makes me reluctant to refer, as you did, to them as ‘plebs’.
Of course you’re probably correct that the job is becoming increasingly automated however I’d remind you that, on those relatively rare tragic occasions when there is a serious crash, ‘driver error’ seems to be a common first port of call amongst accident investigators.

RA, Thicky is just parroting what Trice reform **** has been saying on social media, that defending what Farage earns, saying he "works" hard, whilst train drivers don't.

I mean fancy an MP from a private company that supposedly backs the "ordinary working" man, attacking a group of workers? Thicky hasn't a clue what a train drivers job entails (actually he hasn't a clue full stop) and all this talk of salary comparisons just demonstrates how Thicky, a supposed flag bearer for "liberal" capitalism has absolutely no idea about these matters.

If one was going to start attacking ludicrous salaries, I'd have thought professional footballers and especially those in the premier league would be the place to start, I mean how many GCSE's are required to earn £100k plus a week?

If the value and complexity of a job equalled its salary then there are plenty of roles that society depends upon which warrant more than say an investment banker, a TV presenter Journalists and indeed many Managers and CEO's!

Anyway one wonders, if driving a train was that simple for the pay, why Thicky when mining ceased didn't go for it?

[Geoff Parkstone]

RA, Thicky is just parroting what Trice reform **** has been saying on social media, that defending what Farage earns, saying he "works" hard, whilst train drivers don't.

I mean fancy an MP from a private company that supposedly backs the "ordinary working" man, attacking a group of workers? Thicky hasn't a clue what a train drivers job entails (actually he hasn't a clue full stop) and all this talk of salary comparisons just demonstrates how Thicky, a supposed flag bearer for "liberal" capitalism has absolutely no idea about these matters.

If one was going to start attacking ludicrous salaries, I'd have thought professional footballers and especially those in the premier league would be the place to start, I mean how many GCSE's are required to earn £100k plus a week?

If the value and complexity of a job equalled its salary then there are plenty of roles that society depends upon which warrant more than say an investment banker, a TV presenter Journalists and indeed many Managers and CEO's!

Anyway one wonders, if driving a train was that simple for the pay, why Thicky when mining ceased didn't go for it?

Maybe it's my faulty memory but I seem to recall TTR saying he did previously work as a tube train driver?? He does after all make many claims ☺️

[ramAnag]

Maybe it's my faulty memory but I seem to recall TTR saying he did previously work as a tube train driver?? He does after all make many claims ☺️

Indeed he does…I think he did refer to driving a train ‘underground’ at some point, however I took it to be something to do with his mining or engineering careers…either that or perhaps he had a starring role in that Indiana Jones film! Who can tell?

Mind you there have been a few suspect claims on here amongst the recent administrative chaos…I’m still waiting for explanations regarding me getting young minds to ‘surrender’, or AF’s claim about ‘constant Nazi references’ and it all being the fault of a ‘certain poster’s’ obsession with Farage.

[MadAmster]

The pizza guy was a jest in response to the hilarity of your post.

Are you trying to tell me, that a train driver, sat in a cab. With a radio, computer control system, an external mangement system and signal system, has more life endagering moments than an artic driver, ploughing down a motorway?
PEN PUSHERS, YOU'RE ALL THE SAME. Know nothing about physics, mechanics, risks, skill levels

During my working life, the last 1/4 of which was in teaching, I have designed, built and run computer centres. That includes fire prevention, electrical safety, backup measures etc etc etc.. Pen pusher? Far from it. Train drivers are there, mainly, for when the "system" fails or outside influences, such as some idiot being on the tracks or a broken down vehicle at a crossing requires instant handling to prevent a crash. Of course, if it's a suicide attempt, that's likely to be a last second jump and they can't react quickly enough. You minimise the train drivers task. It's similar to an airline pilot, in essence. A train is perfectly capable of running itself but, as yet, there's no replacement been found for the human intervention when needed.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m still waiting for AF’s claim about ‘constant Nazi references’

Don't be so bleedin' arrogant! Neither I nor anyone else owe you an explanation on anything we address at someone else. I will point out though that it's not a 'claim' its an observation

[Geoff Parkstone]

Unless they are rear gunning!

[MadAmster]

Gents. Can we please stop this, incredibly childish and annoying, constant sniping?

It's gone beyond anything sensible, reasonable or proportional. Desist from constantly playing oneupmanship. I don't give a flying f*ck who started it. ALL of you, quit, NOW!

[ramAnag]

Don't be so bleedin' arrogant! Neither I nor anyone else owe you an explanation on anything we address at someone else. I will point out though that it's not a 'claim' its an observation

Me being arrogant? Physician heal thyself!
Of course you don’t ‘owe’ me an explanation, just be nice if you’d say what you mean…and what I mean by that is, there’s lots of empty claims being fired at the moment…yours about ‘Nazi’ references, a ‘certain poster’ being obsessed by Farage, ‘most’ people having second jobs, my maths being incorrect (when it certainly wasn’t), and most teachers having second jobs together with TTR’s about ‘soft surrendering’ and the rubbish about MA being a ‘pen pusher’ who knows nothing.

Just my observation, but it’d be nice if, just for once, the pair of you would put some flesh on the bones of your claims and substantiate some of the nonsense being thrown around. Empty vessels and all that.

P.S. Sorry MA…only just seen your appeal. Take your point…just pissed off with people making personal remarks and innuendos which they appear completely unable to back up. Kind of invalidates the purpose of a forum….imo.

[MadAmster]

P.S. Sorry MA…only just seen your appeal. Take your point…just pissed off with people making personal remarks and innuendos which they appear completely unable to back up. Kind of invalidates the purpose of a forum….imo.

Exactly why I put it large and in bold

[MadAmster]

BTW - it's not just FootyMad either, there's a handful of similar posters on dcfcfans and a plethora on FB. I'm seriously contemplating leaving all 3.

[Geoff Parkstone]

During my working life, the last 1/4 of which was in teaching, I have designed, built and run computer centres. That includes fire prevention, electrical safety, backup measures etc etc etc.. Pen pusher? Far from it. Train drivers are there, mainly, for when the "system" fails or outside influences, such as some idiot being on the tracks or a broken down vehicle at a crossing requires instant handling to prevent a crash. Of course, if it's a suicide attempt, that's likely to be a last second jump and they can't react quickly enough. You minimise the train drivers task. It's similar to an airline pilot, in essence. A train is perfectly capable of running itself but, as yet, there's no replacement been found for the human intervention when needed.

It's an interesting point that the driver is there for when the automated systems cannot act or fail to act, so they effectively ae watchman / brakeman - whilst letting the train drive itself. Agree that's the reality of the job, although wonder whether that role merits what will approach 90k a year in a couple of years time. A lot of that high salary was developed in an era when the role was more hand on / less automated, yet it has not gone down as technology has crept in. Many jobs (my own included) have downgraded and have become less well remunerated because of tech, yet train drivers seem immune from such changes. The power of a closed shop and the ability to hold customers / passengers hostage to strike action combines to allow them to demand and get perhaps disproportionately high salaries. The refusal to accept technological changes in the industry is to my mind not acceptable. I agree that one man trains are not the answer but there has to be an acceptance that the industry must move forward. The answer for the train companies is not simply to spend more but to spend wisely - on infrastructure, rolling stock and technology - and not caving in to wage demand tactics more relevant to the 1970's. All jobs evolve, move with the times, don't sit in entrenched positions refusing to embrace change.

[MadAmster]

It's an interesting point that the driver is there for when the automated systems cannot act or fail to act, so they effectively ae watchman / brakeman - whilst letting the train drive itself. Agree that's the reality of the job, although wonder whether that role merits what will approach 90k a year in a couple of years time. A lot of that high salary was developed in an era when the role was more hand on / less automated, yet it has not gone down as technology has crept in. Many jobs (my own included) have downgraded and have become less well remunerated because of tech, yet train drivers seem immune from such changes. The power of a closed shop and the ability to hold customers / passengers hostage to strike action combines to allow them to demand and get perhaps disproportionately high salaries. The refusal to accept technological changes in the industry is to my mind not acceptable. I agree that one man trains are not the answer but there has to be an acceptance that the industry must move forward. The answer for the train companies is not simply to spend more but to spend wisely - on infrastructure, rolling stock and technology - and not caving in to wage demand tactics more relevant to the 1970's. All jobs evolve, move with the times, don't sit in entrenched positions refusing to embrace change.

Depends on what terms and conditions are being looked at by the companies. If it's upping the number of weekends worked from 26 to 39 and then cutting the premium payments for weekend working or upping the number of night shifts and, again, cutting premium payments then I'm with the drivers who would, basically, be paying for their own pay increase. If it's the other things in the T&C's the companies wish to change, then mI'd likely come down on the side of the companies UNLESS, as the drivers claim, some of those changes will cause a decrease in passenger safety.

Might the current drivers be more willing to income changes if the companies came with a plan to keep their level of remuneration stayed where it is and a lower level was agreed for newcomers to the industry?

At KLM, pilots, together with the company, looked at costs and profitability and decided that the current levels of remuneration were not sustainable. They came to an agreement that saw the current staff keeping their levels of pay and newcomers earning less. At a later date, when the company got into financial trouble, the pilots lent the company something like €2Bn to keep it afloat and had, IIRC, a 2 year pay freeze. Could UK rail drivers be persuaded to be as flexible?