Election Year or Fear!

[ramAnag]

Fair enough, I didn't expect otherwise. I just think that it's equally bigoted to be bigoted towards bigots. Which you are.

The fact that you find that acceptable speaks volumes. To call someone else's opinion either deliberate falsehood, bigoted nonsense or garbage is simply the resort of a scoundrel. It's opinion, just because yours differs does not make contrary views into falsehoods, garbage or nonsense. To do so demonstrates you own extreme bigotry.

Sorry, GP but that too is nonsense. We’re not talking about opinion. The lies that were told in the build up to Brexit and in the aftermath of the Southport atrocity, as just two examples, were just that…lies not opinion. Likewise something was ‘used’ earlier this week that was palpably untrue. It wasn’t ‘opinion’ it was demonstrably incorrect and untrue and it’s not being bigoted to point it out.

[SithHappens]

It's an interesting concept. To find someone's views offensive means you are demonstrating bigotry. Well if you look at the definition of bigotry then it's probably true...'beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial'

So I suppose it's true.

I'm fairly happy to be labelled a bigot for finding certain posts offensive.

[Andy_Faber]

Likewise something was ‘used’ earlier this week that was palpably untrue. It wasn’t ‘opinion’ it was demonstrably incorrect and untrue and it’s not being bigoted to point it out.

I'm sure we all do it though rA - as you did in the Liverpool car tragedy thread for instance. Glad you don't consider me bigoted to point it out

[ramAnag]

I'm sure we all do it though rA - as you did in the Liverpool car tragedy thread for instance. Glad you don't consider me bigoted to point it out

You’ll have to remind me. I remember GP being called out for his ‘tasteless’ comment, but I don’t recall how I was in any way bigoted on that thread. Please explain.

I thought bigotry meant an obstinate and unreasonable attachment to a belief most frequently and typically involving some type of prejudice. Maybe I’m wrong or we’re talking about different things.

[swaledale]

You’ll have to remind me. I remember GP being called out for his ‘tasteless’ comment, but I don’t recall how I was in any way bigoted on that thread. Please explain.

I thought bigotry meant an obstinate and unreasonable attachment to a belief most frequently and typically involving some type of prejudice. Maybe I’m wrong or we’re talking about different things.

Its getting quite weird at the moment RA, I know Trump and Farage like to contradict themselves and claim the opposite of what is actually real or factual, but it seems that confusion is spreading to certain posters on here to, I guess it must be reading our red friends posts, its frazzled their minds.!

I'm pissing myself laughing at the moment having been told apropos of nothing, that not knowing who a certain person who indulged publicly in ***ually promiscuous behaviour was, means I'm and I quote "Out of touch" a claim that one would either have to be incredibly dim, or have a very blinkered view of the world to make.

[Andy_Faber]

You’ll have to remind me. I remember GP being called out for his ‘tasteless’ comment, but I don’t recall how I was in any way bigoted on that thread. Please explain.

I thought bigotry meant an obstinate and unreasonable attachment to a belief most frequently and typically involving some type of prejudice. Maybe I’m wrong or we’re talking about different things.

No I was referring to people saying things that were ?palpably untrue?. Including yourself

[swaledale]

No I was referring to people saying things that were ?palpably untrue?. Including yourself

You mean like you claiming that your post stating that me not knowing the name of a certain person meant I was "out of touch"? Didn't mean that? Mm sounds like your hitting the wrong target here and should perhaps be looking at yourself.

Still maybe now you will stop trying to look clever and take cheap shots and this forum can return to reasoned debate or the airing of opinions?

[ramAnag]

No I was referring to people saying things that were ?palpably untrue?. Including yourself

…and yet you still don't provide an example and I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about. So what have I said that is ‘palpably untrue’ and what did I say on the Liverpool incident tread that was bigoted? They’re are your two accusations after all.

As Swale says it’s all a bit weird on here at the moment. Almost as if the three of you have picked up the current strategy of say it often enough and it becomes ‘true’. It doesn’t.

[Andy_Faber]

…and yet you still don't provide an example and I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about. So what have I said that is ‘palpably untrue’ and what did I say on the Liverpool incident tread that was bigoted? They’re are your two accusations after all.

As Swale says it’s all a bit weird on here at the moment. Almost as if the three of you have picked up the current strategy of say it often enough and it becomes ‘true’. It doesn’t.

You?ll have to find your palpable untruth yourself. It stuck out like a sore thumb as being an unnecessary and off topic comment too. No suggestion of bigotry, you misunderstood that

If by ?the three of us? you mean TTR GP and I we have no allegiance to one another and from what I see we feel no need jump to the defence of one another (unlike yourself and Swale), what I?m guessing (only), is that we (as individuals) have become pissed off with constantly being lectured to that any POVs contrary to yours are ?bigoted? ?racist? ?dim? ?lacking moral compass? etc (Swale with his atrocious ?bedside manner? by far the worst I will grant you), and we fight an unwinnable fight by responding with anger, wit and sarcasm alongside the points we make. I?m not sure what we?ve been especially aligned on recently to make anything ?true? (unless it is true), you?d need to give examples

[macstheman]

TTR shows his face for a couple of days and it's like an old fashioned western bar brawl in here.

I feel like one of those in the movies picking his glass up off the bar as someone gets slung down it, while TTR has stirred the pot, had his whisky and calmly rode off on his stallion called Nigel.

Twas ever thus Sith!
Still, maintains the entertainment levels despite the 🤕 whilst we await the new season! (fixtures out later today BTW!)

[Geoff Parkstone]

AF "have become pissed off with constantly being lectured to that any POVs contrary to yours are ?bigoted? ?racist? ?dim? ?lacking moral compass? etc "

I'd say that sums up my perspective yes - whilst ironically noting that in being so aligned one proves rA's point!

I for one am sick of the "4 legs good, 2 legs bad" mentality espoused by certain posters in response to any and every issue, slavishly following a mantra that has some merit but is not by any means a "final solution".

[ramAnag]

You?ll have to find your palpable untruth yourself. It stuck out like a sore thumb as being an unnecessary and off topic comment too. No suggestion of bigotry, you misunderstood that

If by ?the three of us? you mean TTR GP and I we have no allegiance to one another and from what I see we feel no need jump to the defence of one another (unlike yourself and Swale), what I?m guessing (only), is that we (as individuals) have become pissed off with constantly being lectured to that any POVs contrary to yours are ?bigoted? ?racist? ?dim? ?lacking moral compass? etc (Swale with his atrocious ?bedside manner? by far the worst I will grant you), and we fight an unwinnable fight by responding with anger, wit and sarcasm alongside the points we make. I?m not sure what we?ve been especially aligned on recently to make anything ?true? (unless it is true), you?d need to give examples

Better things to do, AF. In my world if you make an allegation you should be able to substantiate it. You can’t, or won’t. Until you do it’s virtually impossible for me to respond, but telling me to find it myself suggests a somewhat lame attempt to disguise the fact that there was no such untruth on my part in the first place.

A case of either put up or shut up imo and please sort the question mark punctuation out. Your posts are becoming almost unreadable.

[Andy_Faber]

Better things to do, AF. In my world if you make an allegation you should be able to substantiate it. .

Ok. Out of nowhere and not pertinent to the conversation (caps mine for emphasis) you wrote

West Ham fans in the early eighties ? smashed up every - COINCIDENTALLY (?) ASIAN OWNED - shop around the BBG after a League Cup night match

how could you know either the totally of destruction or the ethnicity of ownership? How could the West Ham fans know? I reads like a desperate and invented attempt to pop some virtue signalling into the debate but I bet you knew it not to be true when you wrote it

See, we all do it

[Geoff Parkstone]

In defence of rA here a moment, there is a strong likelihood that every shop in the environs of the BBG at the time was Asian owned....

of course that means there is no need to say "Asian owned" but who doesnt like a little embroidery.

[ramAnag]

Ok. Out of nowhere and not pertinent to the conversation (caps mine for emphasis) you wrote

West Ham fans in the early eighties ? smashed up every - COINCIDENTALLY (?) ASIAN OWNED - shop around the BBG after a League Cup night match

how could you know either the totally of destruction or the ethnicity of ownership? How could the West Ham fans know? I reads like a desperate and invented attempt to pop some virtue signalling into the debate but I bet you knew it not to be true when you wrote it

See, we all do it

Lol! Is that it? Is that really the best you’ve got?

Even you say it’s ‘not pertinent to the conversation’, so why mention it? But here goes, by way of reply.

Firstly, context is everything. The Liverpool thread had moved away from the specific incident to Sith (because he is, I think, the youngest of us all) asking when the problem of hooliganism began.
I replied that my first memories of it were Millwall in the early-mid sixties but that the worst I’d actually witnessed was West Ham fans smashing up the area around the BBG in the late seventies/early eighties.

If you knew anything at all you’d know that West Ham, like Millwall, at that time had a reputation for having a significant proportion of fans who were noted for their violence and also their racist behaviour.
As even GP acknowledges, the area around the BBG, was well known for its Asian population and the vast majority of shops in the area being Asian owned.
As it happens, that night I had to walk back from the BBG across Normanton to Stafford Street where I had parked outside a mate’s flat.
The initial part of that journey was the most frightening of my ‘football life’. It is the only time I have ever seen the police corralling ordinary match goers saying it was not safe to go up certain streets and when we eventually made it through the labyrinth of little streets that surrounded the BBG to get away up Normanton Road we saw that virtually every shop we passed had had its windows broken and now appeared to be protected - a bit shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted - by groups of angry and upset Asians.

That is what I saw. That is how I know. I used the term ‘coincidentally?’ because I cannot be 100% certain that the violence was racially motivated, but given the common knowledge of Normanton’s population and the reputation of a significant number of West Ham’s travelling supporters for organised violence and racist thuggery at the time, it doesn’t seem unlikely.

I recognise that you’ve been desperately trying to discredit anything I say since your flawed anecdotes were questioned and exposed earlier in the year but no…we don’t all do it. You do. I don’t, and you may believe what you like…but every word of that account is true.