Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

Interesting to hear on the tv this am that the keynote of the imminent Lib Dem party conference is ?Traditional British values?. Do I recall some on here arguing strongly that there?s no such thing? Maybe Ed?s wrong? Maybe someone should drop him an email quickly?

[ramAnag]

Interesting to hear on the tv this am that the keynote of the imminent Lib Dem party conference is ?Traditional British values?. Do I recall some on here arguing strongly that there?s no such thing? Maybe Ed?s wrong? Maybe someone should drop him an email quickly?

Such sarcasm, so early. You seem to have been jumping on everything and everyone this week, AF.

Traditional British values? By which we probably mean such things as Democracy, Rule of Law, Individual Liberty/Freedom of Speech, Respect and tolerance for other faiths and beliefs.

I may be wrong but I can’t remember anyone arguing, as you suggest, that ‘there’s no such thing’. What I do remember is arguing that they weren’t peculiar to the British.

By which I mean, which of these values do you believe not to be shared by all Western/NATO democracies and, by extension, what makes them ‘British’. Can you name a value which is synonymous with Britain alone?

[Geoff Parkstone]

What an extraordinary question. Because others share the same or similar values doesn't mean they can't be British as well. The Greeks "invented" democracy but it's still a British value...well probably one that's fading away under Starmer 😃 (that's meant to be a joke before your knickers get too twisted)

[ramAnag]

What an extraordinary question. Because others share the same or similar values doesn't mean they can't be British as well. The Greeks "invented" democracy but it's still a British value...well probably one that's fading away under Starmer �� (that's meant to be a joke before your knickers get too twisted)

Of course it doesn’t, but being a value shared by, for example, Greeks, French, Germans, Dutch, Italians, Americans, Scandinavians etc doesn’t make it a specifically ‘British value’. So for Andy to suggest that anyone argued that there was no such thing as British values isn’t, imo, the case.
The suggestion was, as I recall, that it was difficult to think of a ‘value’ that is specific or peculiar to the British alone. In fact I can’t think of one. Can you? Maybe Ed will…or even Andy.

[Andy_Faber]

What an extraordinary question. Because others share the same or similar values doesn't mean they can't be British as well. The Greeks "invented" democracy but it's still a British value...well probably one that's fading away under Starmer 😃 (that's meant to be a joke before your knickers get too twisted)

Weve had the daft line of reasoning you’re trying to refute in a previous spat GP, it went on way too long. I would try to differentiate by suggesting that some of our recent arrivals don’t share the British value of treating females as equals but the UK liberal left seem to joining in with that so I’m no longer sure

[swaledale]

Weve had the daft line of reasoning you’re trying to refute in a previous spat GP, it went on way too long. I would try to differentiate by suggesting that some of our recent arrivals don’t share the British value of treating females as equals but the UK liberal left seem to joining in with that so I’m no longer sure

By the same token, around 40% of those "protesting" last summer and claiming to be doing that to "protect" women and children, had had interaction with the Police and criminal justice system for offences against women and children, so that rather demonstrates that this narrative that's been pushed by right wing agitators and indeed some mainstream politicians (Robert Jenrick for instance) is a false one.

Now why might that be? Possibly because whilst many people will not be bothered (as a previous post of mine demonstrated) by asylum seekers or immigrants, they will be motivated by a "threat" to women and children. And it works! Many people including it would seem you swallow the misinformation that is peddled in such rags as the daily fail and claim, they are concerned about this "threat" and are not racists!

Now Jenrick wrote a **** stirring piece in the daily fail recently claiming he was "worried" about his 3 daughters hence his support for the protesters outside hotels. He of course ignores the fact he in the government and actually directly responsible for using such hotels in the first place!!

The facts such as they are, is that there is no data which proves that asylum seekers, Muslims or immigrants are more likely to commit ***ual offences or offences against children than any other race or nationality.

Its pure xenophobia, whereby people with limited experience of the world are whipped up by suggestions that foreigners are inherently inferior and more dangerous than "native" British people.

Its some what ironic that the far right agitators who are claiming that immigrants have a different cultural approach to women, are themselves in many cases mounting a systematic attack on women's rights, with their anti abortion, trad wife philosophies!!

I agree that the Labour government is doing virtually nothing to dispel these dangerous falsehoods, which it could do quite easily. But it seems pandering to the bigoted minority is the name of the game now.

[swaledale]

What an extraordinary question. Because others share the same or similar values doesn't mean they can't be British as well. The Greeks "invented" democracy but it's still a British value...well probably one that's fading away under Starmer 😃 (that's meant to be a joke before your knickers get too twisted)

RA wasn't saying that though was he? He was pushing back against those who make the spurious claim that those values held to be British are not shared by foreigners!

[ramAnag]

Weve had the daft line of reasoning you?’re trying to refute in a previous spat GP, it went on way too long. I would try to differentiate by suggesting that some of our recent arrivals don?’t share the British value of treating females as equals but the UK liberal left seem to joining in with that so I?’m no longer sure

Why is everything a ‘spat’ to you? It’s just seeking clarification.
You’ve brought up a previous question, in a fairly sarcastic way. I’ve responded.
I quite agree that SOME ‘foreign cultures’ don’t agree with treating females - and or homo***uals - as equals. However it could easily be argued that such an enlightened, egalitarian approach in Britain is hardly ‘traditional’, indeed I’d suggest that there are still plenty of ‘home grown’ environments where ***ism and anti-gay sentiment remain rife.

The question is simply being asked, what are these values you have mentioned Ed Davey speaking about that you regard as specifically ‘British’. It’s not a trick and neither is it ‘daft’. I just don’t know what they are and you don’t appear able, so far, to explain.

[Andy_Faber]

I quite agree that SOME ?foreign cultures? don?t agree with treating females - and or homo***uals - as equals. However it could easily be argued that such an enlightened, egalitarian approach in Britain is hardly ?traditional?

Only by someone who delights in doing ?his own? down

[ramAnag]

Only by someone who delights in doing ?his own? down

Hmmm. Somewhat offensive and completely incorrect nonsense. You obviously, as usual, have no answer, still I hope you enjoy the match.

[swaledale]

Only by someone who delights in doing ?his own? down

So thinking that s@xism, homophobia, racism, Xenophobia, misogyny do not represent British values is doing the country down?

I guess joining a march organised by amongst others a known far right and convicted criminal activist, financed by shadowy billionaire who has been shown to be pushing a pro Israel narrative (whilst financing fascists!!) and platforming people with extreme right wing views from France, New Zealand pus of course allowing Musk, to call for a democratically elected government to be overthrown violently if necessary is just "uniting the country"?

It is possible, if one is a vaguely sentient being, to criticise certain aspects of Uk life, without necessarily doing one's own country down.

[swaledale]

Interesting to read that a member of a group that's been erecting flags in Manchester and was a leader in last Saturdays march in London was convicted in 2016

In 2016, Twamley was stopped at the border. In the back of his Ford Connect van were four Vietnamese people he was attempting to smuggle into the country. He was later convicted for being part of a five-person illegal immigration operation and sentenced to 20 months in prison. At the time, Ben Thomas, of Immigration Enforcement’s crime team for the North West, said: “This shameless gang plotted to bring desperate people into the UK illegally purely for their own financial gain.”


So some of these "patriots" not only have convictions or cautions for domestic violence against women, but also convictions for smuggling migrants into the country illegally!

[swaledale]

Hmmm. Somewhat offensive and completely incorrect nonsense. You obviously, as usual, have no answer, still I hope you enjoy the match.

Thats what happens when you've been indoctrinated like AF, RA, you spout nonsense when challenged! Its called flooding the zone with ****! Such that its virtually impossible to respond logically and debunk all the crap thats thrown out or in this case posted.

The other tactic which AF is using is of course with me, is to ignore any requests for corroboration, facts, evidence and such like that actually debunk the view put forward obviously on the basis that facts and reality are not welcome in "his world"

[ramAnag]

Thats what happens when you've been indoctrinated like AF, RA, you spout nonsense when challenged! Its called flooding the zone with ****! Such that its virtually impossible to respond logically and debunk all the crap thats thrown out or in this case posted.

The other tactic which AF is using is of course with me, is to ignore any requests for corroboration, facts, evidence and such like that actually debunk the view put forward obviously on the basis that facts and reality are not welcome in "his world"

Oh he does that with me too. In the last 24 hrs I?ve asked him the following, 1) Which part of Derby he means when he says ?that?s what I mean by I want my country back? and 2) What are the particular values he regards as specifically ?British??
Both reasonable questions of someone who introduces those points, but of course there?s been no answer, just a little bit of rudeness including accusing me, ridiculously, of ?doing down my own? (whatever that means) and a bit of an attack on Sith too because he made a valid point which confounded our moderator?s Mayor of London theory.
Factual logic does appear to be disappearing, only to be replaced by nastiness from the man who only yesterday claimed to set such high value on the virtue of politeness.

Close to giving up on the basis that it?s hopeless trying to argue with those who deliberately misquote and misrepresent views they are apparently unable to sensibly and honestly debate over.

[SithHappens]

So after spending the past few weeks claiming he stopped the war between albania and azerbaijan, trump is now claiming he stopped the war between Armenia and Cambodia.