Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

Thing is you would expect they have advisors though who can work out the detail.

They should take a leaf out of Mick Lynchs book. He's always prepared and knows the detail on what he is talking about.

Absolutely. Don?t always agree with his politics but he?s bloody excellent at making his point and well researched

[Andy_Faber]

Presume ‘begun’ should read ‘be run’ and I agree that governments and politicians could learn a great deal from certain successful business professionals and that certain business people would run rings around the majority of politicians.

However isn’t the purpose of business to make a profit, while the purpose of government is, or should be, to serve and provide for the needs of the people i.e. neither the NHS nor the national education service can possibly make a conventional profit, but both must be funded to serve the people and ultimately benefit society by providing a healthier and better educated population.

Re the second paragraph, don?t agree that those differing objectives preclude proper (ie private sector) management. I can?t speak for education management but the NHS is a shambles management wise, based on personal and friendship group experience.

[ramAnag]

Re the second paragraph, don?t agree that those differing objectives preclude proper (ie private sector) management. I can?t speak for education management but the NHS is a shambles management wise, based on personal and friendship group experience.

Again I agree, and don’t doubt there is room for improvement as regards the management of state provided facilities however that doesn’t alter my main point. That being that you cannot apply the profit ethic of business to the NHS and state provided education sector, or for that matter to any of the emergency or defence services.

Two examples. Someone very close to me has recently needed medical intervention. Fortunately this is covered via his employment so…excellent treatment, little if any queuing and great food, but it’s all being paid for in a way that the NHS isn’t.

Likewise I’ve had cause to visit a number of fee paying schools in the last couple of years. Their facilities are magnificent, but then their fees are between 29k and 50k per pupil per year whereas at Merrill (no disrespect intended) a large proportion of pupils will be needing the school to provide ‘breakfast club’ intervention before any learning can take place.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Dont forget the extra 20% for VAT on top of those fees thanks to 2TS, a nbeneficiary of private education!

But more seriously, are you a supporter of right to chose / private education or in favour of a one suit fits all state education system. This is not to extend a debate into should the latter be funded better, but a simple "Does the private education option have a place in today's education system".

[ramAnag]

Dont forget the extra 20% for VAT on top of those fees thanks to 2TS, a nbeneficiary of private education!

But more seriously, are you a supporter of right to chose / private education or in favour of a one suit fits all state education system. This is not to extend a debate into should the latter be funded better, but a simple "Does the private education option have a place in today's education system".

It’s very complex GP. We all choose to an extent don’t we? As young parents we made the choice of living in a ‘better’ area (smaller, more expensive house) because, by and large, better areas have better schools. That was our choice.

I also spent half my secondary education at a public school - albeit as a scholarship pupil meaning that fees, which my parents wouldn’t have otherwise been able to afford weren’t a problem - so it’s not a world I’m entirely unfamiliar with.

Having said that, we’re now talking well over fifty years ago and even I’ve been shocked at some of the facilities I’ve seen more recently. They are absolutely phenomenal and I just wish that so many more children/young people could have access to the facilities currently reserved for the top 5-8%. Doesn’t make me jealous and I think the facilities on offer should be something the state aspires to, but it does seem unfair that a small proportion of young people get such a huge advantage from the off.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I too had the benefit of a free (scholarship based) public boarding school education for which I was gratedul yet curiously perhaps had no wish to send my children to a public school because I hated the experience myself - knowing noone locally to enjoy the school holidays with as the end of a school term led to a diaspora of the kids in my year to eg Fiji and Thailand. So educationally advantageous but socially challenging.

So when it came to my kids it was great to find a hybrid school on our doostep with relatively modest fees so the boys could benefit educationally but not need to board. Lucky, yes - but I doubt Id have wanted them to board if that was only option

[Ram Pant]

IMO the choice should be there. If an individual decides to pursue a Bachelor Degree through a private institution, they will pay VAT on the fees. I think the same should be true for private schools (no idea why they were ever called public).

If you pay for a service, there's VAT to pay. Why should schools be any different?

Looking at it from a different perspective, just as Ammy would, I don't think Precious Peter from the rich household should get a leg up in the education and the rest of life stakes and Chavvy Charlie from Chad not get the same life chances and the possibility to "better" himself. Isn't the old adage "we are all born equal"? That wasn't true then, isn't now but, maybe, it should be.

[swaledale]

Did you see newsnight last evening? Two labour supporters on the settee last night, one a successful businessman the other an MP, the former made mincemeat of the latter who quite simply not up to speed with the issues. I haven?t said if for a while but IMO the country should be begun by business professionals not politicians

Mm, there is a case for professionals in an advisory capacity in specific areas, but politics is a very different matter and I doubt many would like what a government of business professionals would be like. Lets face it in most businesses democracy isn't a by word and also one is assuming such people are going to be better at administration of a broad organisation, when most are good in their field but clueless on many other things.


What is obvious in the current government is that neither the PM or the Chancellor actually have a clear vision, other than it seems trying to out Reform Reform. They don't seem to have actually planned for what happens when they were elected, and I'm still waiting for an honest articulation of what they actually believe in apart from this mythical "growth".

AS for Reeves, well having had personal experience of dealing with her when I was in Leeds, my opinion of her was low then and hasn't changed.

[ramAnag]

IMO the choice should be there. If an individual decides to pursue a Bachelor Degree through a private institution, they will pay VAT on the fees. I think the same should be true for private schools (no idea why they were ever called public).

If you pay for a service, there's VAT to pay. Why should schools be any different?

Looking at it from a different perspective, just as Ammy would, I don't think Precious Peter from the rich household should get a leg up in the education and the rest of life stakes and Chavvy Charlie from Chad not get the same life chances and the possibility to "better" himself. Isn't the old adage "we are all born equal"? That wasn't true then, isn't now but, maybe, it should be.

But it’s utterly unattainable, MA. The ‘accident of birth’ factor sees to that. Even allowing for the fact that some are born in the Cotswolds and others in Moss Side, the Isle of Dogs or Gaza…some are born to brilliant and caring parents while others are dragged up by people who are unfit to parent and that is inescapable.

[Andy_Faber]

But it’s utterly unattainable, MA. The ‘accident of birth’ factor sees to that. Even allowing for the fact that some are born in the Cotswolds and others in Moss Side, the Isle of Dogs or Gaza…some are born to brilliant and caring parents while others are dragged up by people who are unfit to parent and that is inescapable.

For once rA you aren't being the biggest idealist the room, MA is. 'Accident Of Birth' is a big part of it and although I've seen good teachers on both sides of the paywall dragging kids up (and occasionally down) its IMO parenting that does most to influence outcomes of equally capable children. BUT there's more than one aspect to 'parenting' - a moral code yes, hours helping with homework yes, but also in some cases making the necessary sacrifices to put the kids into the magnificent environments you mentioned.

[ramAnag]

For once rA you aren't being the biggest idealist the room, MA is. 'Accident Of Birth' is a big part of it and although I've seen good teachers on both sides of the paywall dragging kids up (and occasionally down) its IMO parenting that does most to influence outcomes of equally capable children. BUT there's more than one aspect to 'parenting' - a moral code yes, hours helping with homework yes, but also in some cases making the necessary sacrifices to put the kids into the magnificent environments you mentioned.

Couldn’t agree more about the parenting part and as I’ve always maintained, there is no greater ‘gift’ than that of being brought up by good and decent parents.

As regards the ‘magnificent environments’, I think I was describing the fact that they are comparatively magnificently equipped. Having spent four years in one and visited others I’m not convinced they’re always ‘magnificent environments’ but the facilities they offer are superb.

On the sacrifice point. I’m sure that some parents make such a sacrifice, but the fact is that less than 10% of pupils attend our private ‘public’ schools. The fees are beyond the means of the vast majority, even allowing for the ‘sacrifice’ you speak of, and wouldn’t it be better to create a more level playing field offering much improved facilities and opportunities for the 90% plus?

[Geoff Parkstone]

And how much would Ms Reeves need to raise in extra taxes for that? OBR says 38% of GDP goes to the government in tax already (and they spend 44% of GDP), so fix this and NHS too and we'd likely be at around 50% ++. It would be "better" to have perfect facilities free to everyone across the public sector but GB Limited can't afford it. In fact I doubt any developed economy can.

Let's hope all our new doctors and engineers can help supercharge the economy to meet these aims, but sadly all this is just pie in the sky

[Trickytreesreds]

Good evening viewers. ( best Benny Hill voice).

Been a while and quick mention to say, well done DCFC on your revival. Surprised me, but no doubt surprised yourselves.

But back on topic. Labour are done.
That budget was pathetic.
Unless you are a benefit user, there was nothing there to help the country. No growth , nothing. In fact within 1 day if it Reforms size grew. Rachel from accounts seems clueless , except to appeasement for their left whingers.
Their public polling now puts them down to third at best and it?s still falling. ( I know Ra mentioned my one year prediction I made ) , but seriously? How the feck is he still here?

His team are a joke. From Rachel to Lammy, who came out with another Gem this week. Basically wanting to abandon the bastion of British justice, of trial by jury, to a hearing with a judge . Then getting angry and confused as to why folks rejected it and the whole idea. Honestly, I don?t think I have ever seen a more detached bunch of loons going. Though on that score, the Greens are jockeying for the honour.

I?m going to thank Labour though, for finally undoing a great injustice, to return the money stolen from the MPS. All ?3.5 billion of it.
Been a foookin outrage that they robbed it in the first place and I look forward to my 50k Christmas bonus.

Love tricky xx

[ramAnag]

And how much would Ms Reeves need to raise in extra taxes for that? OBR says 38% of GDP goes to the government in tax already (and they spend 44% of GDP), so fix this and NHS too and we'd likely be at around 50% ++. It would be "better" to have perfect facilities free to everyone across the public sector but GB Limited can't afford it. In fact I doubt any developed economy can.

Let's hope all our new doctors and engineers can help supercharge the economy to meet these aims, but sadly all this is just pie in the sky

You’re right of course and I acknowledge that, however you asked about the future of public schools (private education) and my response is that the current situation exemplifies the inequality to be found in the UK (and the US) today.
Money must be available, how else can such schools thrive with fees (per pupil) well in excess of the national average wage?
I don’t have the answer or the solution. Don’t even know if there is one. I’m just suggesting that, in the interest of fairness, it is unjustifiable for the wealthiest 7-8% to have access to such facilities while the vast majority have to make do and mend. It’s not a new situation but some of the facilities I’ve seen recently have reinforced my view of this particular inequity.

[Andy_Faber]

You’re right of course and I acknowledge that, however you asked about the future of public schools (private education) and my response is that the current situation exemplifies the inequality to be found in the UK (and the US) today.
Money must be available, how else can such schools thrive with fees (per pupil) well in excess of the national average wage?
I don’t have the answer or the solution. Don’t even know if there is one. I’m just suggesting that, in the interest of fairness, it is unjustifiable for the wealthiest 7-8% to have access to such facilities while the vast majority have to make do and mend. It’s not a new situation but some of the facilities I’ve seen recently have reinforced my view of this particular inequity.

What exactly do you mean 'money must be available'? Are you suggesting that private school fees would just be handed over to the state?