Election Year or Fear!

[ramAnag]

Not at all impressed by Anas Sarwar this evening, but interesting that so many Labour MPs, including Rayner, appear to be coming out in support of Starmer.

Will it last? Who knows? Politics is a messy old business and is it any surprise that the country is in the mess it is when we’re looking at the possible removal of our fourth PM in less than four years? Don’t know what the answer is, but it most certainly doesn’t begin with Nigel.

[Geoff Parkstone]

never seen a set up before?

[Geoff Parkstone]

it works, well **** me

[ramAnag]

it works, well **** me

Ah, you’re back. We’ve all been getting on. Don’t spoil it.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I'll steer clear of returning then and leave you to the circle jerk party

[swaledale]

A reasonable question deserves an answer, so, too top to bottom

I’m concerned too, but/and the hateful dialogue is from both/all sides, on many subjects. I blame social media for its rise but not for the existence of it in the first place, social media has merely lifted the lid on hate/division that was always there

I think your definition / understanding of mega wealthy and mine is different, I think folk switch off on being bothered about your list of issues way further down the wealth scale, that’s maybe part of the problem, with what I call the ‘fat and happy’

I don’t see the point predicting three years ahead, I think that’s agreeing with you

Farage’s mettle will only be proven if/when in office, his USP is his ability to ‘connect’ (for good or ill) and that will sustain through time, not sure who or how it could be countered

I’m not worried by any form of govt other than full dictatorship at one end and away with the fairies at the other. I’m more resilient than that, I actually get the impression you are too but our view on how much ‘politics’ influence our lives differ

Don't disagree, that on the extremes, whether left or right there is hateful dialogue and yes all people have it within them to spout hate, socila media has I think amplified that to an extent where people who would never insult a sports person for losing for example, feel able to do so in the most disgraceful ways on social media. What social media and technology, including youtube, etc. has enabled is a more widespread dissemination of disinformation, conspiracy theories and the disturbing phenomenum of people who say and promote extrme views, not becuase they necessarily belive them, but because it earns them money, fame and notoriety (and Goodwin the Reform candidate for the byelection is a prime example).

Having said that, Farage and other extreme politicians do now say things which previously would have been thought beyond the pale, that I'm in no doubt, has encouraged other people to see xenophobia, racism, ***ism, misogyny and indeed hatred of "others" as "legitimate".

My defintion of the mega wealthy may be different, I'm referring to those, as exemplified in the case of Epstein, whose wealth and power enables them to act as if the norms of society, as if the rule of law etc. does not apply to them. It also encourages those the hangers on (Mandelson being an example) to support and enable their activities.

The disconnect between a large proportion of the voters and politics is indeed a problem, a significant number either don't make the effort, or simply cannot be bothered to understand the realities of politics and its impact on their lives. However, they will moan and whinge when their house gets flooded, food prices rocket, or services like health, eductation, trasnport etc. are no longer available or they have to pay to access. I'm still struck by the interview with a voter in Clacton at the last election, who when asked why they were voting Reform, said, "becuase of immigrants, we have waiting lists for Dr's, schools are overcrowded and our youngsters can't get a council house. The interviewer then said, but immigrants make up less than 1% of the population here, so how are immigrants the reason in this contituency. The voter had no response to that.

You say that only an outright dictatorship would worry you. The salient point here is that, dictatorships start off by being elected, wolf in sheeps clothing if you will. They are rarely obviously authoriatarian to start with, though they will tailor their policies in a clever way which will appeal to people who want simple answers, such as the death penalty will reduce murders, stopping immigration and deporting people will mean "native" Brits will ahve acess to the services they desire and more jobs, climate chnage is a hoaz and efforts to combat it are pointless, if we stop doing that, you will all see prices drop and your lives improve etc. etc. The point being that I know many don't thin politics influences their lives, but the reality is it does, Brexit, austerity has all contributed to what people are feeling, not the sole reason of course but political decisions ahve imapcted heavily even if people don't realise it.

Then bit by bit, if elected, look at Poland and Hungary for examples, but also look at Le Penn in France and Italy the screw gets tightened, opposition parties are banned, elections fixed, free speech is constrained, in that any dissenting voices from those in power are silenced, the media is suppressed or becomes a state propaganda machine and those harsh punishments that were used against sector sof the population who mnay people thought deserved it, are now used aginst one's family, relatives and friends.

Trump is a relative outlier in that he did actually say what he intended to do and around 50% of the voters seemed to like the idea of a "new and different" approach, I'd say the reality is starting to hit home to more than a few of those and it wil be interesting if not a little worrying how things progress over the next few months. Though I think many of those who thought we will just be resilent and put up with him for 4 more years are now thinking that isn't going to work.

As for Farage, he is a snake oil salesman, pure and simple, yes he has charisma and communication skills, but he has no "man of the people" and no record of any positive contribution to the UK or its voters and surely one has to ask, who are the people and organisations funding him? And whats their motive for doing so?

[Ram Pant]

Fartrage appeals to a certain type of person. The stupid who believe conspiracy theories. Those convinced they are being done down and Fartrage is the only one to tell them who's to blame even though they are not the reason why although they are part of it. Much of it is down to everything that has helped turn the wealth gap into a gaping gorge. Maggie started the ball rolling, destroying a fair bit of UK manufacturing, the mines, steel... It's carried on ever since.

Close to home, Burton has been ruined by multinationals buying up the breweries and shutting much of the brewing down reducing the number of well paid jobs in the industry and in brewing related companies in Burton from >10K to around 1K. Those well paid jobs have been replaced by low paid, menial, unskilled low pay jobs. The pwople of the town are poorer than they were pre Coors etc and that has seen the town centre go down hill fast. Still never mind that an entire town ansd its surrounds had been financially screwed over, the shareholders are still doing well.

The rich are getting ever richer and the rest are fcuked.

Folk know they are fcuked and grifters are showing them who to blame and that is everybody except the rich and the grifters.

Same the world over. Trump and the rich now rule the roost and I am starting to doubt that the midterms will take place. IMO, if he's not stopped, the US will be a dictatorship soon run by the rich and their lackeys. Just like China and Russia at the moment.

[ramAnag]

Fartrage appeals to a certain type of person. The stupid who believe conspiracy theories. Those convinced they are being done down and Fartrage is the only one to tell them who's to blame even though they are not the reason why although they are part of it. Much of it is down to everything that has helped turn the wealth gap into a gaping gorge. Maggie started the ball rolling, destroying a fair bit of UK manufacturing, the mines, steel... It's carried on ever since.

Close to home, Burton has been ruined by multinationals buying up the breweries and shutting much of the brewing down reducing the number of well paid jobs in the industry and in brewing related companies in Burton from >10K to around 1K. Those well paid jobs have been replaced by low paid, menial, unskilled low pay jobs. The pwople of the town are poorer than they were pre Coors etc and that has seen the town centre go down hill fast. Still never mind that an entire town ansd its surrounds had been financially screwed over, the shareholders are still doing well.

The rich are getting ever richer and the rest are fcuked.

Folk know they are fcuked and grifters are showing them who to blame and that is everybody except the rich and the grifters.

Same the world over. Trump and the rich now rule the roost and I am starting to doubt that the midterms will take place. IMO, if he's not stopped, the US will be a dictatorship soon run by the rich and their lackeys. Just like China and Russia at the moment.

Don’t disagree with any of the above and fully accept that the likes of Farage and Trump both personify the age of the grifter - as did Johnson.
But while one has been stopped in his tracks - mainly because he arrogantly overreached himself - the other two continue to thrive for the time being. So how do we stop them?

[Ram Pant]

Don’t disagree with any of the above and fully accept that the likes of Farage and Trump both personify the age of the grifter - as did Johnson.
But while one has been stopped in his tracks - mainly because he arrogantly overreached himself - the other two continue to thrive for the time being. So how do we stop them?

Midterms, if they actually take place, should put paid to Trump.

I'm "counting down" to the next election in Clacton as a certain lady will have more than enough ammunition to see Fartrage off. His poor attendance record in the constituency. Voting against measures to make life safer for women and girls. Voting against measures to make things better for the working and middle class workers. Etc.

[swaledale]

Thanks but your response, crystalised by the above extract, strengthens my point - you are using it to coralle together anyone who doesn’t stand up for your series of personal beliefs/causes - as such, I might have a completely different set of beliefs/causes, so might everyone here, it’s purely subjective. Maybe it’s a subset of your ‘idiots’, maybe not. In the present day it can only apply directly, as opposed to by analogy, to the rising turning of deaf ears to antisemitic rhetoric. NB I know no Jews, its a general point

Mm, thought about this and I wouldn't disagree that my interpretation of the phrase "Good Germans" is influenced by my views, of course it is, but the principle of the phrase and the way I use it, is best summed up by this below, which I freely admit contains material purloined from the internet.

A self-applied term of genteel self-delusion used to describe those members of the German populace who, during the Nazi era, prided themselves on being apolitical, law-abiding, and “decent” — while living within walking distance of genocidal horror.
The “Good German” was always just a little too busy to notice the stench of burning human hair.

They perfected the art of averting their gaze — stepping politely over the shoes left behind on the train platform, whistling past the synagogue on fire, pretending not to see the child in the attic window with the yellow star sewn crooked on their chest.

They paid their taxes.
They made their beds.
They buttered sandwiches for SS officers on their way to mass executions.
They did not protest.
They did not inquire.
They did not see — because seeing might require doing, and doing might jeopardize their enjoyment of life.

To be a “Good German” was to be the sort of person who believed that decency could be preserved in isolation from justice — the kind of coward who, when history cracked open and screamed, pressed their fingers in their ears and complimented the Fuehrers punctuality.


Modern Collaborator (contemporary usage)

Someone willing to sacrifice the rest of humanity’s future in exchange for a few more clicks, a little more money, a peaceful life or the personal thrill of not being the first to burn.

Often found in corporate boardrooms, government committees, residents associations, media owners and tech-sector “ethics panels.”

The modern Good German is the executive who greenlights surveillance programs with a smile and a clever euphemism, the voter who shrugs at fascism because the stock market’s up, the parent who teaches their children that climate change is “a hoax” while buying flood insurance behind closed doors.

They are the kind of person who will sign your deportation orders in blue ink and still hold the elevator for you.
They are polite.
They are quiet.
They are dangerous.
And they will absolutely be the last to admit they were ever complicit, even as they sweep the ashes from their porch.


Your last point about antisemetism does I feel fails to address that ANY kind of religous discrimination or attacks should be condemned outright. This should apply to Jews and Muslims in equal measure. I don't believe there is a rise in deaf ears towards antisemetism any more than there is towards Islamaphobia. Do any of us say or do enough when witnessing an incident where someone is being harassed, threatened, insulted or assaulted or where offensive language is used that should be considered unacceptable in a civilised society?

But in anycase it is not comparable with allowing a partiuclar group fundamentally change the nature of a democratic state without saying or doing anything to counter what is happening.

I would be more sympathetic to those Jews who justifiably complain about increasing incidents of antisemtism, if they also recognised that the actions of Israel in Gaza and its annexation of the West Bank and treatment of Palestinians over decades also been disgraceful. I do happen to know a a few of Jews and not surprisngly their views vary, one I know is very angry at the way Israel has conducted itself, another is unapologetic saying it has no choice.

[swaledale]

Not at all impressed by Anas Sarwar this evening, but interesting that so many Labour MPs, including Rayner, appear to be coming out in support of Starmer.

Will it last? Who knows? Politics is a messy old business and is it any surprise that the country is in the mess it is when we’re looking at the possible removal of our fourth PM in less than four years? Don’t know what the answer is, but it most certainly doesn’t begin with Nigel.

I don't think it will RA, Starmer is toast in my eyes, which on the one hand is a shame, given he is I believe a man with good ethics and principles, but his inability to communicate or sell a vision to people is a serious flaw. For all that people say they want a serious PM, the knives have been out since before he was elected and too many unforced missteps have sealed his fate.

Your right that the answer isn't Farage, nor is it the greens, whose rag tag range of policies just won't cut it, even though they are likely to split the left leaning vote.

I had an interesting discussion with a younger, more left leaning person before Christmas, who was enthusiastically singing the praises of Corbyn's new party. Theyweren't happy when I expressed the view that Corbyn couldn't lead his way out of a wet paper bag, never mind a political party and so it has proved!

[Andy_Faber]

I'll steer clear of returning then and leave you to the circle jerk party

Please only include me in that as a voyeur

[ramAnag]

Please only include me in that as a voyeur

Lol. That’s even worse!

[swaledale]

Fartrage appeals to a certain type of person. The stupid who believe conspiracy theories. Those convinced they are being done down and Fartrage is the only one to tell them who's to blame even though they are not the reason why although they are part of it. Much of it is down to everything that has helped turn the wealth gap into a gaping gorge. Maggie started the ball rolling, destroying a fair bit of UK manufacturing, the mines, steel... It's carried on ever since.

Close to home, Burton has been ruined by multinationals buying up the breweries and shutting much of the brewing down reducing the number of well paid jobs in the industry and in brewing related companies in Burton from >10K to around 1K. Those well paid jobs have been replaced by low paid, menial, unskilled low pay jobs. The pwople of the town are poorer than they were pre Coors etc and that has seen the town centre go down hill fast. Still never mind that an entire town ansd its surrounds had been financially screwed over, the shareholders are still doing well.

The rich are getting ever richer and the rest are fcuked.

Folk know they are fcuked and grifters are showing them who to blame and that is everybody except the rich and the grifters.

Same the world over. Trump and the rich now rule the roost and I am starting to doubt that the midterms will take place. IMO, if he's not stopped, the US will be a dictatorship soon run by the rich and their lackeys. Just like China and Russia at the moment.

Not a lot to disagree with there. Any human system is going to be imperfect, its run by humans after all, but whats worrying is that the controls and checks and balances that used to keep the extremes in check are being removed and many people seem unable to recognise that.

I'm not as pessimistic as you RP, because I do believe that there is a substantial body of people who are not passive in the face of Trump's outrageous behaviour, the push back in Minnesota demonstrates this, whatever ones views on individual issues, the actions of an armed militia roaming the streets with no accountability is not something the average American will stand for. Trump will overreach himself he hasn't the intelligence or guile not to.


Democracy isn't perfect, but it enables a functioning society where a peaceful compromise can be reached, most people recognise that one party does not have all the answers. Capitalism has proven the most successful economic system, but unfettered or unregulated capitalism is in nobodys interests.

[Andy_Faber]

Lol. That?s even worse!

I bow to your greater experience