Election Year or Fear!

[Ram Pant]

Best make that a 5th language. Add in "bad" as well and i'm at 6.

Saw this online and it raised a smile. Hope you like it too...

I’m disgusted by the amount of hate Pam Bondi is getting at the moment.
It’s nowhere near enough, and we can do better.

[swaledale]

Best make that a 5th language. Add in "bad" as well and i'm at 6.

Saw this online and it raised a smile. Hope you like it too...

I’m disgusted by the amount of hate Pam Bondi is getting at the moment.
It’s nowhere near enough, and we can do better.

All these "useful" fools, in top ositions, but the concern is those behind them pulling the strings, in Trump's case literally!

[SithHappens]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c70ne31d884o not a good look really. Reform will be enjoying this and rightly so.

[Andy_Faber]

Well it was connected, in that you seem to hold the opinion that any support for the Palestinian's and their right to a nation by displying a Palestinian flag is antisemetic.

I do not profess to be an expert on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, other than history suggests it arises from the creation of Israel, by Eurpoean countries after WW2, with a lack of consderation for the people who already lived in those lands, which was so typical of how ex colonial powers carved up land into nations back then, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh being prime examples. It is a complex area and impossible to arrive at a simple solution IMO>

Your presumably referring to HAMAS, as the entity "whose prominent religion has an objective to destroy another state"? I'd argue that Muslims in general and Islam as a religon doesn't have that as a stated aim, but that as you well know, within all religions, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim or indeed Hindu is used by men (its predominantly men) as a cover for violence to achieve aims that are generally both at odds with the philosophy of the religion? HAMAS is just one in a long line of human groups that do this.

There are ways and means by which Israel could destroy HAMAS or render it ineffective, the slaughter of 70,000 people, the majority of whom posed no threat not only doesn't achieve that, but is counter productive, further encouraging Palestinians into HAMAS influence. If Israel fails to disarm and remove HAMAS, then all its endeavours will have been for nothing.

But then there is a view that, there was a significant failure by the Israeli, Defence force and government that allowed the 7 October atrocity to occur. Border observers had warned senior officers for weeks about unusual activity in Gaza, these warnings were ignored. this comes from Israeli sources, as does the view that the Gaza action is largely "performative" to keep questions being asked about Netanyahu's failure.

I'd agree that Israel has the right to protect itself and go after the perpetrators, but that must surely be within the terms of international law? In any case IMO, rather than doing that it is "punishing" people who had nothing to do with the attack, other than they lived in a place governed or more accurately controlled by the organisation that did. One might hope that HAMAS's credibility is udnermined, given that they must have know that Israel would retaliate and that risked the lives of ordinary Plalestinians, but I'm not holding my breath.

Israel is annexing land in the West Bank, its just not calling it that, but the not so subtle encourgaement of settlers onto land occupied by Palestinians, backed up by state infrastructure, with accompanying violence and intimidation.

As I've said previously, I don't disagree, that amongst those demonstrating in support of Palestinians, there will be elements with an antisemetic intent, much in the same way I believe you countered that not all those who attended Yaxley-Lennons "Freedom March" were racists.

Given that a substantial proportion of Israeli citizens and other Jews support a just and peacefu solution to the issue, its inacurate surely to apply a broad brush antisemite label to those displaying the Palestinian flag?

Response para by para

No, I'm saying that many flying the flag are antisemetic, som eby ignorance, some by long-held conviction, some by direct or indirect influence from 'dark forces'

Yes it's complicated, as is a lot of middle East 'politics' hence my original response.

Yes lots of men either feel justified by the writings off, or use as an excuse, various religions for selfish/expansionist reasons. Without even declaring which one I believe to be currently most culpable, note that we're only talking about one here, all the others are just a return to whaboutery which rA has forbidden. Different strand of discussion? by all means

Agreed Israel has gone waaaay overboard on their actions and will be creating lots of new HAMAS in doing so

Agreed they were pretty much asleep at the wheel when Oct7 happened

Agreed what I think is a similar point to the going overboard one above

Agreed regarding land grab, my view personally is if i'm against Russia doing it why condone what Israel do? And why do nation states?

So it comes back to flag waving and the motivations attached - My view is the 'mix' is the same on both sides -the ideologically devout, the doo gooders/virtue signallers and those being influenced by (my description) 'dark forces' (Palestine Flag = anti-Jew, Cross Of St George = Anti-Muslim) - and the 'whats this weeks protest' / out for the day with the kids cohort. An observation of the makeup of this forum is that it's not representative of the country as a whole regarding which 'flag' is expressing the more justified concern or at least not prepared to accept that their are faults on both sides

Not disagreeing that many Jews appear to be outraged by what's going on, but they aren't the ones flying the flags and the original comment from rA was about flags, and in my view the Palestine flag is becoming the default flag of 'The Left'

[ramAnag]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c70ne31d884o not a good look really. Reform will be enjoying this and rightly so.

I think they’re wrong to back down. What is the point of having two elections within nine months? Reform UK now appear to be walking off with 100k of tax payers money, but I’d love Farage to explain how this won’t be a complete waste of money.

[SithHappens]

I think they’re wrong to back down. What is the point of having two elections within nine months? Reform UK now appear to be walking off with 100k of tax payers money, but I’d love Farage to explain how this won’t be a complete waste of money.

Yep should have stood their ground really.

[ramAnag]

Not disagreeing that many Jews appear to be outraged by what's going on, but they aren't the ones flying the flags and the original comment from rA was about flags, and in my view the Palestine flag is becoming the default flag of 'The Left'

I’ll just respond to that point then, as the rest is really aimed at Swale’s response.

I don’t agree that it’s the ‘default flag of the Left’. I don’t even agree that you have to be ‘left wing’ to recognise that the Israeli governments response to Gaza has been outrageous.

Last Sept/Oct, while in Spain, I was genuinely surprised at the number of Palestinian flags in evidence and they had not been put up by militant left wing adventurists, but by ordinary folk who were appalled at what they’d seen. Indeed one of the villages concerned is nicknamed and celebrated as the ‘Village of the Three Cultures’, those being Christian, Muslim and Jewish.

I’m sure a minority will fly the Palestinian flag for the reasons you suspect, but in general I’d compare it more to the outbreak of Ukrainian flag flying of two or three years ago…just ordinary, concerned people expressing their disgust at the behaviour of a more powerful bullying ‘neighbour’.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m sure a minority will fly the Palestinian flag for the reasons you suspect, but in general I’d compare it more to the outbreak of Ukrainian flag flying of two or three years ago…just ordinary, concerned people expressing their disgust at the behaviour of a more powerful bullying ‘neighbour’.

Sorry to bring the discussion full circle but I disagree with that even more. The Ukraine flag united folk, the Palestine flag causes division, its being used as a cover-all anti (small c) conservative marker IMO

[ramAnag]

Sorry to bring the discussion full circle but I disagree with that even more. The Ukraine flag united folk, the Palestine flag causes division, its being used as a cover-all anti (small c) conservative marker IMO

I fear that?s just an example of socially constructed cultural perception, Andy. It?s much ?easier? for ?us? - (middle class, relatively well off white folk) - to be anti Russian than anti Israeli and much easier for some to be pro-Ukraine than pro (largely Muslim) Palestine.

P.S. Just to be clear, I don?t go in for flag waving of any description and certainly don?t have a flag on my property.

[Andy_Faber]

I fear that?s just an example of socially constructed cultural perception, Andy. It?s much ?easier? for ?us? - (middle class, relatively well off white folk) - to be anti Russian than anti Israeli and much easier for some to be pro-Ukraine than pro (largely Muslim) Palestine.

P.S. Just to be clear, I don?t go in for flag waving of any description and certainly don?t have a flag on my property.

Nor I, apart from occasionally a black Ram on a white background. Mrs F does have a Flag of St Andrews that pops up occasionally, thankfully we weren’t home on Saturday!

[Ram Pant]

Two schools of thought on the council election thing. One that Starmer should have stuck to his guns and the other that he was right to allow the elections.

I said a while back that, financially, delaying the elections was the best idea as it prevents 2 sets of local elections in the same/simlilar area insode 9 to 15 months of each other. It now seems that egal advice is to have two sets of elections.

I saw a gloating post on a reform FB page yesterday on the elections. I posted that, legally this was the correct decision but that I sincerely hoped that, a year down the road they did not start complaining about the costs of the second set of elections. I got one response and that was "thank you and now clear off". Reform in a nutshell?

[ramAnag]

Two schools of thought on the council election thing. One that Starmer should have stuck to his guns and the other that he was right to allow the elections.

I said a while back that, financially, delaying the elections was the best idea as it prevents 2 sets of local elections in the same/simlilar area insode 9 to 15 months of each other. It now seems that egal advice is to have two sets of elections.

I saw a gloating post on a reform FB page yesterday on the elections. I posted that, legally this was the correct decision but that I sincerely hoped that, a year down the road they did not start complaining about the costs of the second set of elections. I got one response and that was "thank you and now clear off". Reform in a nutshell?

You were talking sense, RP. I suspect that, yet again, the Government failed to make its case very well, but you surely didn’t expect a sensible reply back from a Reform UK FB page. I’m only surprised it wasn’t more offensive.

[Ram Pant]

You were talking sense, RP. I suspect that, yet again, the Government failed to make its case very well, but you surely didn’t expect a sensible reply back from a Reform UK FB page. I’m only surprised it wasn’t more offensive.

The most surprising thing to me was that someone replied to the "clear off" reply saying "he's right though". Maybe folk should listen to me more often

[swaledale]

You were talking sense, RP. I suspect that, yet again, the Government failed to make its case very well, but you surely didn’t expect a sensible reply back from a Reform UK FB page. I’m only surprised it wasn’t more offensive.

My gripe is that yet again, this Government don't seem to have "dotted the I's and crossed the "T's" before deciding to do something. If the legal advice is correct, which one assumes it is, why the **** wasn't that established BEFORE making announcement about cancelling the elections? Starme ris ****ing lawyer after all! On the face of it, cancelling the elections is a sensible idea. Plus as they are in Government, Labour could have introduced a quick bill to pass legislation to do this in any case!

I'm afraid that despite many of the poisitive things this government has achieved, this another instance where Starmer and the Government look half arsed!

On the positive side, If Reform do win a few more council seats, they will have to contest them within 2 years and judging by the turmoil and distrust in Reform, not mention going back on their pre election claim not to raise council tax, they may well shaft themselves!

[ramAnag]

See Farage has named his new team. Can’t help being reminded of The Who in 1971 and with apologies to Pete Townsend, ‘Here’s the new team. Same as the old team’. You know the title. Let’s hope it comes true.