OT - Manchester again.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Swale "So your heartily sick of protests, a democratic way of showing dissent with what's happening with a government or governments? Yet so many of your hard won freedoms and rights wouldn't have been achieved without them!"

Indeed they were hard won - by my and your ancestors, peer groups etc. But they were hard won by british people for the benefit of the British citizens. Not by a bunch of wokes loonies and fringe minorities not interested in their own country but protesting in favour of one group of terrorists against in effect another group. Whatever the outcome it wont effect me so yes, Im sick of those particular protests as in no way can I relate to them any longer. My sympathy evaporated the minute "the cause" started killing british citizens in britain to demonstrate I know not what.

Mostly the protestors seem to be just a bunch of people with minimnal skin in the game and still less to do with their lives joining in on the bandwagon that makes themselves feel relevant. As has often been noted the LGBT community would be wiped out if it were to establish itself in an islamist state. Just a bunch of happy clappers.

there you go, I realise Ive used the expression british far too many times for your comfort, but simply this. When those people bring their war to these shores, and none of them come with clean hands, they can just **** off. for context, how many people did you know personally that were killed in 7/7 or indeed 9/11?

[swaledale]

Swale "So your heartily sick of protests, a democratic way of showing dissent with what's happening with a government or governments? Yet so many of your hard won freedoms and rights wouldn't have been achieved without them!"

Indeed they were hard won - by my and your ancestors, peer groups etc. But they were hard won by british people for the benefit of the British citizens. Not by a bunch of wokes loonies and fringe minorities not interested in their own country but protesting in favour of one group of terrorists against in effect another group. Whatever the outcome it wont effect me so yes, Im sick of those particular protests as in no way can I relate to them any longer. My sympathy evaporated the minute "the cause" started killing british citizens in britain to demonstrate I know not what.

Mostly the protestors seem to be just a bunch of people with minimnal skin in the game and still less to do with their lives joining in on the bandwagon that makes themselves feel relevant. As has often been noted the LGBT community would be wiped out if it were to establish itself in an islamist state. Just a bunch of happy clappers.

there you go, I realise Ive used the expression british far too many times for your comfort, but simply this. When those people bring their war to these shores, and none of them come with clean hands, they can just **** off. for context, how many people did you know personally that were killed in 7/7 or indeed 9/11?

In 9/11 one person closely, though what's that got to do with protests? Your lumping together protests about what's happening in Gaza, with individuals who for whatever motivation decide to wreak violence and death on people only vaguely connected to it, if that is frankly bizarre. Those who commit atrocities for whatever "cause" are hardly the same as people who take part in peaceful protests.

How do you come to the conclusion that protesters aren't interested in their own country? Surely in many cases those protesting are concerned, if not actually angry that their own country and government is aiding and abetting or at the very least doing nothing to stop what is clearly a breach of International law on the part of the current Israeli government.

You will be claiming next that the UK should have done nothing when Hitler invaded Poland, after all that didn't affect British citizens and its very possible that the UK could have reached an agreement with Hitler. (whether that would have held is open to question obviously, but the principle behind what your saying remains).

I rather think the LGBT community aren't the only ones who would suffer in a strict Islamic state, as has often been shown in Iran, many people who aren't LGBT, even young women have suffered grievously. Not that I can see the relevance to this argument, other than you seem to be of the view that such people should shut up and appreciate the freedoms afforded by the UK. Freedoms which one has to point out were hard won and by protests, after many including people who have served this country in war time and other endeavours were treated disgracefully. Dismissing these people as happy clappers is a tad disrespectful.

I'd also point out that the suffragettes were considered loonies and worse in their time.

I'm puzzled by your "the cause" started killing British citizens in Britain to demonstrate what?" - not actually aware that protests resulted in that anymore than the IRA were protesting when killing British citizens and I had a close shave with those guys in Birmingham, having been in the Tavern in the Town an hour before it was bombed.

These aren't protesters, their usually called terrorists! There is a distinct difference, one which you seem to be rather muddled about. Those that in this instance are motivated by some Islamist or other creed that in any way suggests that killing or maiming people is a way of supporting the cause, aren't protesters as you well know.

Ah the word "woke", I'm sorry but by using that as a pejorative term, you've dismantled your own argument. Woke in its proper form means being aware of and against social injustice etc. I fear the grumpy old git in you has forgotten that those who campaigned for women's rights were "woke" in that sense. But then perhaps you would rather those rights hadn't been hard won? You certainly seemed peeved that LGBT people have won some rights for some reason. Personally they don't bother me at all.

Protest is democratic right, that acts as a way of those people who care showing that they care, sure there may well be some who join in for the fun, but its an important "safety valve" in a democracy and has in the past resulted in changes for the good.

Its your opinion that most protesters are just people with minimal skin in the game, fair enough, it might be partly true, after all weren't you claiming that many on the "Unite Britain" march were not inherently supporting the far right people who organised it and spoke at it? I'd quibble at the word most, but then its also true that many protesters believe deeply in the cause, deeply enough to campaign (I happen to know quite a few who do a lot of campaigning and they don't just go on protests).

You seem to be mixing up terrorism, with protesters? If one is protesting about the genocide being visited on the Palestinians thats hardly supporting terrorists, if they were protesting in favour of hamas, then you'd have a point.

Ah so your only concerned with what directly affects you? Fair enough, each to his own, though you do perhaps overlook the point that what the UK does or does not do in the international sphere, does have a direct affect on you. Its one very big reason we have had these terror attacks, perhaps the pro Palestine protesters have a point (after all historically the UK had a big part in creating the problem that exists). If the UK actually was more active in restraining or not actively selling weapons to Israel to massacre Palestinians, then who knows they might not have happened.

I'm genuinely puzzled that you equate a protest, with certain individuals or terrorist groups who commit these atrocities, I can't see the link here, there is no evidence the protests encouraged the attacks, it certainly wasn't protests that resulted in 7/7 or 9/11, that was fundamentalist maniacs reacting to what the UK and US predominantly were doing in the Middle East. Your making a connection that is tenuous to say the least.

[swaledale]

I imagine you’re talking of Lucy Connolly (not Collins) and we’ve been down this road before. It’s my opinion that someone who actively encourages what she did deserves what she got. Nothing remotely like ‘1984’.

Are you suggesting that her behaviour and what she advocated/incited was acceptable? Are you suggesting there was no ‘black hole’ inherited by Labour last year or that, following the banking crisis there wasn’t 14 years of Government incompetence? Five PM’s in that period might suggest otherwise.

If you are we disagree, but I’m really not sure of your point and I’m sorry but I don’t really understand your Row Z/mosh pit analogy regarding religion either.

I rather think as a self proclaimed Christian, he is inferring that us atheists/agnostics/humanists aren't qualified or sufficiently involved to understand the nuances of religious matters.

On the other hand he could just be posting his usual gibberish, who knows....or cares really, those of us with open and enquiring minds can recognise dogma and blinkered views when posted.

[ramAnag]

Re Lucy C, to make it easier, I don't defend her inflammatory rantings but I feel the punishment was not altogether proportionate. However that's past history now, so really no point debating her.

But how is her case any different to, say, radical Imams calling for followers to rise up and slay the infidel? I'm sure in the fullness of time Jihad al Shami will be shown to have been radicalised by one or more individuals and causes. What will happen to his mentors who could arguably be said to have successfully achieved what the likes of Lucy C failed to do. Those that influenced Jihad to act how he did are equally culpable for yesterday's actual murders - but will they face the weight of the law? We will see but I'm not putting money on it.

Jihad was just a pawn in a sinister game played by people far higher up the food chain - not excusing his actions but suggesting there are bigger wider issue in play here that will likely be placed under the carpet.

And so the process will continue and these attacks will not be isolated. Those who instigate them will remain in the shadows while the footsoldiers are sacrificed. There's always another volunteer to be persuaded and (based on performances so far) those "teachers" (no disrespect rA) will remain outside prosecution/deportation/whatever as a disruptive scar on our society, hell bent on ensuring that a harmonious diverse society will never happen. Muslim Farages if you will.

Yet Lucy C served her time, achieved nothing and noone will remember her name by this time next year (Andy's forgotten it already!).

The law punishes the stupid failures, they are easy targets, yet the real villains of this piece go undetected or unchallenged.

Hate to use the expression 2 tier justice (that epithet isn't Starmer's alone) it's more of a global challenge.

Okay, point by point.

Lucy Connolly. Glad we agree, up to a point, although I doubt she’s past history. Suspect she’ll continue to resurface as some sort of ridiculous Reform martyr.

Personally I agree there is little difference and I don’t disagree with your portrayal of ‘Muslim Farage’s’. All as bad as each other, as are some of the Jewish hierarchy hence my comments about fundamentalists and extremists. We should not forget however that Jihad al Shami is, justifiably, dead and the perpetrator of the Southport attack, equally justifiably, imprisoned for life. Hardly ‘2 tier justice’ then.

I’m not going to disagree with your comments about foot soldiers, volunteers, real villains etc either. That all too often seems to be the case, right from wartime scenarios through to organised crime.

Where I think we disagree is that, while I share your belief that all extremism works against the ‘harmonious, diverse society’ you speak of, you are allowing your anger and frustration to encourage you to side more with one (or two) particular groups (while demonising the other) and I am opposed to all forms of fundamentalist and extremist behaviour.

As regards Starmer…he doesn’t always get things right and there’s no point in pretending otherwise, but you immediately dragging him into this week’s Manchester response was, imo, uncalled for. He is just trying to stop the spread of ‘hate’. The exact opposite of Lucy Connolly and the radical Imams.

[SithHappens]

I tend to agree Connolly will be yesterday's news in a years time. Farage is milking her right now, once he's got his worth out of her, which is probably about now, he will discard her. She definitely won't be guest of honour at next year's conference (her appearance at this year's was utterly disgusting).

She better not be on im a celeb, or strictly. Not that I watch either.

[Trickytreesreds]

Digital ID cards would have prevented this��
Just like the one in one out, and smashing the gangs is working. 6 sent to France now, be solved in no time at this rate. Well done Labour.
Your recognition of a terrorist state and justification of terrorists would have had nothing to do with it, neither your soft policing of Palestine marches, where anti semitic chants and banners take place.
Meanwhile, you pledge money to protect mosques and appease Muslims getting upset at all the complaints about their crimes?

But lives don’t matter to Starmer over a few votes.

[Trickytreesreds]

So the sick ****s, won’t show any respect

https://news.sky.com/story/pro-palestine-marches-to-go-ahead-despite-calls-to-cancel-after-manchester-synagogue-terror-attack-13443915

Despite Trump pushing a deal nearly over the line and the hurt among Jews , they still want to carry on their hate march

Ive said before about this. I actually don’t believe any of this is really about Gaza. It’s about anti semitism and Jew bashing. There has been no marches over Syrians butchering each other, 100 000 kids dead. Yemen where over 60 000 civillians have been virtually executed. Or the Ukraine where an estimated 1 M have died. No Jews there to get inflamed about. Most of these protestors are left wingers and seeing Labours fingers are stained in anti semitism, it hardly seems surprising.
I watched question time last week, the Liberal was nearly in tears after the national flag rally, saying she felt scared and the police being attacked was awful��. She made no mention of there being 26 arrests and 18 of them were ANTIFA activists. So out of a crowd (laughing here as that figure is bollox) , 150 000 , 8 right wingers, scared her����

Meanwhile yesterday, Palestine March had dozens more arrested, for violence with less people. Nottinghill carnival had over 800 arrests ? ��

It seems the far right, pissed off with immigration are far more racist and intimidating, than actual racist activists chanting, fighting, waving placards.


Its one hell of a warped narrative here by the politicians and press.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Bloody hell Swale, I must have almost met you in the Tavern. I was supposed to be there that evening before going to the cinema next door to it, but the bus didn't turn up so we decided to have a drink locally instead. I was also supposed to have been meeting clients in WTC on 9/11 but we rescheduled the trip until a week later. To complete my personal hat trick I walked past the explosive laden white van in St Mary Axe 4 times in tho hour before the CU bombing.

But the IRA attacks, evil as they were, Wer almost "acceptable" in that they were grounded in a "war" between Ireland and England.

Manchester and the like are grounded in a "war" between Israel and Palestine fought out on foreign soil - ie Britain.. It's resulted in the death of 3 British citizens, 2 wholly innocent just living their life, one not so but most likely radicalised pawn (jury is out on that).

If Israel and Palestine want to kill each other to the last man standing, let them but the minute you bring that killing into another country and target innocent civilians, that's where a line is stepped over.

Make no mistake, this is NOT the actions of an odd crazy individual. It's a first step in an organised escalation. So why chose Britain as a target to export war? I'd suggest because all the pro Palestinian protests suggest that there is a level of support in this country for their cause. Many European countries are hardening their stances against Islam egxDenmark, Switzerland, France to cite a few.

But good old Britain can be relied on to tolerate the attack. They're a soft touch, look how many people are on our side. There won't be a purge on the real instigators of these murders.

The protestors maybe didn't themselves radicalise anyone but they have given license to those who do. The issues Are linked through a common ideology i- various degrees of hatred. I don't doubt similar levels of hatred underpin the Israeli stance and if the IDF was seen to have organised a strike on a mosque in Leicester I would be equally angry.

[ramAnag]

Bloody hell Swale, I must have almost met you in the Tavern. I was supposed to be there that evening before going to the cinema next door to it, but the bus didn't turn up so we decided to have a drink locally instead. I was also supposed to have been meeting clients in WTC on 9/11 but we rescheduled the trip until a week later. To complete my personal hat trick I walked past the explosive laden white van in St Mary Axe 4 times in tho hour before the CU bombing.

But the IRA attacks, evil as they were, Wer almost "acceptable" in that they were grounded in a "war" between Ireland and England.

Manchester and the like are grounded in a "war" between Israel and Palestine fought out on foreign soil - ie Britain.. It's resulted in the death of 3 British citizens, 2 wholly innocent just living their life, one not so but most likely radicalised pawn (jury is out on that).

If Israel and Palestine want to kill each other to the last man standing, let them but the minute you bring that killing into another country and target innocent civilians, that's where a line is stepped over.

Make no mistake, this is NOT the actions of an odd crazy individual. It's a first step in an organised escalation. So why chose Britain as a target to export war? I'd suggest because all the pro Palestinian protests suggest that there is a level of support in this country for their cause. Many European countries are hardening their stances against Islam egxDenmark, Switzerland, France to cite a few.

But good old Britain can be relied on to tolerate the attack. They're a soft touch, look how many people are on our side. There won't be a purge on the real instigators of these murders.

The protestors maybe didn't themselves radicalise anyone but they have given license to those who do. The issues Are linked through a common ideology i- various degrees of hatred. I don't doubt similar levels of hatred underpin the Israeli stance and if the IDF was seen to have organised a strike on a mosque in Leicester I would be equally angry.

Go steady, Rog. You’ll be a person of suspicion at this rate. Good job CCTV wasn’t up to much in those days!

More seriously, it’s interesting - seriously - that you should seek to differentiate between the IRA attacks and this week’s synagogue attack basically on the basis of the former being more home grown. I don’t think I can and I bet the families of the Birmingham drinkers and Warrington or Manchester shoppers can’t either.

You and I aren’t so far apart, but it isn’t really a case of ‘good old Britain’. Such atrocities do occur in plenty of other places - Germany, France, Denmark, USA etc - too you know.

[ramAnag]

So the sick ****s, won?t show any respect

https://news.sky.com/story/pro-palestine-marches-to-go-ahead-despite-calls-to-cancel-after-manchester-synagogue-terror-attack-13443915

Despite Trump pushing a deal nearly over the line and the hurt among Jews , they still want to carry on their hate march

Ive said before about this. I actually don?t believe any of this is really about Gaza. It?s about anti semitism and Jew bashing. There has been no marches over Syrians butchering each other, 100 000 kids dead. Yemen where over 60 000 civillians have been virtually executed. Or the Ukraine where an estimated 1 M have died. No Jews there to get inflamed about. Most of these protestors are left wingers and seeing Labours fingers are stained in anti semitism, it hardly seems surprising.
I watched question time last week, the Liberal was nearly in tears after the national flag rally, saying she felt scared and the police being attacked was awful��. She made no mention of there being 26 arrests and 18 of them were ANTIFA activists. So out of a crowd (laughing here as that figure is bollox) , 150 000 , 8 right wingers, scared her����

Meanwhile yesterday, Palestine March had dozens more arrested, for violence with less people. Nottinghill carnival had over 800 arrests ? ��

It seems the far right, pissed off with immigration are far more racist and intimidating, than actual racist activists chanting, fighting, waving placards.


Its one hell of a warped narrative here by the politicians and press.

Hmmm, talking of warped narratives, haven’t you been telling us since Adam was a lad that there’s one (lenient) rule for ‘ethnics and lefties’ and a different (stricter) rule for those on the Right?
Now you seem to be saying the opposite - only 8/150k arrests from the flag purloiners while ‘dozens more’ from the smaller pro Palestine rally and 800 at Notting hill.
Can’t have it both ways, Two Tier Tricky.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Go steady, Rog. You’ll be a person of suspicion at this rate. Good job CCTV wasn’t up to much in those days!

More seriously, it’s interesting - seriously - that you should seek to differentiate between the IRA attacks and this week’s synagogue attack basically on the basis of the former being more home grown. I don’t think I can and I bet the families of the Birmingham drinkers and Warrington or Manchester shoppers can’t either.

You and I aren’t so far apart, but it isn’t really a case of ‘good old Britain’. Such atrocities do occur in plenty of other places - Germany, France, Denmark, USA etc - too you know.

Correct rA and the European examples are equally repellent acts of imported warfare too. It's not a case of good old Britain, it's one of waging your own war in someone else's country.. The US example of 9/11 doesn't quite fit that mould as the Americans were actively involved militarily in the Middle East at the time

[Geoff Parkstone]

Hmmm, talking of warped narratives, haven’t you been telling us since Adam was a lad that there’s one (lenient) rule for ‘ethnics and lefties’ and a different (stricter) rule for those on the Right?
Now you seem to be saying the opposite - only 8/150k arrests from the flag purloiners while ‘dozens more’ from the smaller pro Palestine rally and 800 at Notting hill.
Can’t have it both ways, Two Tier Tricky.

or maybe, just maybe the right wing protesters are naturally more law abiding!! Maybe the 8 were arrested for saying naughty words but the dozens were arrested for ABH. perhaps the Notting Hill arrests were mostly drug usage based. numbers mean nothing, its quality of infractrion rather than quantity that matter

[ramAnag]

or maybe, just maybe the right wing protesters are naturally more law abiding!!

Well they sure as hell didn’t seem to be when they were trying to burn down hotels and putting coppers in hospital, did they? You might also like to do a brief background check on some of their ‘leaders’. Wouldn’t describe a certain ‘Tommy Numerousnames’ as remotely law abiding for example and I believe Lee Twarmley - the Manchester flag erector - has been done for people trafficking. To quote some one or other, ‘you couldn’t make it up’!

[Geoff Parkstone]

jesus sarcasm doesnt work on line does it

[swaledale]

Bloody hell Swale, I must have almost met you in the Tavern. I was supposed to be there that evening before going to the cinema next door to it, but the bus didn't turn up so we decided to have a drink locally instead. I was also supposed to have been meeting clients in WTC on 9/11 but we rescheduled the trip until a week later. To complete my personal hat trick I walked past the explosive laden white van in St Mary Axe 4 times in tho hour before the CU bombing.

But the IRA attacks, evil as they were, Wer almost "acceptable" in that they were grounded in a "war" between Ireland and England.

Manchester and the like are grounded in a "war" between Israel and Palestine fought out on foreign soil - ie Britain.. It's resulted in the death of 3 British citizens, 2 wholly innocent just living their life, one not so but most likely radicalised pawn (jury is out on that).

If Israel and Palestine want to kill each other to the last man standing, let them but the minute you bring that killing into another country and target innocent civilians, that's where a line is stepped over.

Make no mistake, this is NOT the actions of an odd crazy individual. It's a first step in an organised escalation. So why chose Britain as a target to export war? I'd suggest because all the pro Palestinian protests suggest that there is a level of support in this country for their cause. Many European countries are hardening their stances against Islam egxDenmark, Switzerland, France to cite a few.

But good old Britain can be relied on to tolerate the attack. They're a soft touch, look how many people are on our side. There won't be a purge on the real instigators of these murders.

The protestors maybe didn't themselves radicalise anyone but they have given license to those who do. The issues Are linked through a common ideology i- various degrees of hatred. I don't doubt similar levels of hatred underpin the Israeli stance and if the IDF was seen to have organised a strike on a mosque in Leicester I would be equally angry.

Its a very small world! Brum was a regular hang out in my ****age years, saw many a cracking gig at the Odeon mostly at £5 a time!! I lived between Stratford on Avon and Brum at the time, we'd do a round of pubs before hitting a nightclub, because it was to expensive to drink in a club! Thankfully I've lost my taste for M&B beer, though to my knowledge it doesn't exist these days!

I do agree, that there has been insufficient attention (as far as we know) paid to certain Imams and others who in Mosques or online have been radicalising people. But the incident in Manchester and the 7/7 were not to my knowledge the result of organised "war", anymore than the Manchester Arena bombing was, it was individuals who may well have been radicalised, who undertook these attacks. It isn't as far as I can see from available evidence, the first step in an organised war.

Again I'd say there is little evidence of a ink between these acts and the protesters who express support for Palestine against the Israeli actions. Nor can I see how they give licence to those that do, these attacks have been taking place for decades, perhaps the person to blame is Bliar with his eagerness to join in with the USA's ridiculous so called "War on terror"? Certainly therein lies more of an a reason, though I stress not one I consider to be a valid one for these atrocities.

It's certainly not helped by the rhetoric that is spewed out by right wing agitators and media grifters against Muslims, some of whom ironically have relocated to a Muslim country!!

I'd take issue that there have not been similar incidents in Europe as RA has pointed out. Indeed France has its own issues due to its involvement in Algeria and Syria but the UK attracts attention because of its historical links to the setting up and support of Israel, plus it eagerness to get involved with the US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Whilst I had sympathy with the IRA cause, I had no sympathy with their bombing and killing civilians. Indeed, it is only when they switched their attention to attacking politicians that the then government started seriously taking action through "back channel talks with the IRA" to reach a resolution. This despite various governments stance of "we don't talk to terrorists"!

My view is that there wasn't the inherent "race" or ethnicity angle at the time which perhaps made them less of an impact and certainly when I was going round Brum or even around London, I never gave it much thought, but maybe that was the nature of being young at the time? One lived in those times and it was "normal"?