Late goals

[Ozwhites]

Farke had done remarkably well this season but he still had things to work on. I?ve been to a few games this season and mates have too.

During that period when his job was under threat he seemed to be less cautious and make more subs earlier and more of them.

I have been to a couple of games were the ere were players who looked tired after about 60 minutes and he waited another 20 minutes.

The problem is by them sometimes the momentum in the game has shifted and the players coming on don?t have time to shift it back.

In a seasons where fine margins count it might make a difference. He seems to be naturally cautious in that he doesn?t line players to take may risks and he is prone to stick rather than twist.

That is part of the overall package with him which I understand but it doesn?t make it any less frustrating.

I'm hearing you Hope...and certainly understand what you are saying, as earlier he was slow to change things up. But just wanted to point out the fact that he is a possibility of getting a kick in the guts with criticism regardless of when he makes subs. He doesn't make them early enough and they score....or otherwise takes the risk of upsetting the formation and makes them.... and then they score after that. Always a gamble either way, and not too many managers get that right all the time from what I've seen.

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

Sorry for all the typos but posting from a phone often means there are glitches.

Yeah he does get a lot of criticism at times but sometimes one gets the feeling he doesn’t always help himself on that regard.

At other times the criticism seems fair, not least because promoted teams need to leave no stone unturned.

😎

[whitestomper45]

I had too much time on my hands recently and adjusted league standings, if our games/results were based on ending at the 60th minute. amended we were 12th with 32 points (now 2 games later it would be 35pts) so fine margins..
We are in the top 5 for distance travelled by players, he seems quite analytical, so not sure why he he doesn't bring on players a bit earlier in general. Bringing players on so late when your under pressure, means those players are not up to speed of the game at a crucialtime and are replacing players who were likely running on fumes....

[MrsORichSenior_]

good points Stomper but substitutions are only effective if the next mans ability is comparable to the first man..... so if there is any drop off in quality your going to have a problem..... and to be fair it takes time for a team to gel together as savvy players and as individual personalities settling into the club.

to some degree some may say substitutions are far more impacted by squad depth than who is actually making the subs as for the most part coaches will typically select the best players they have available for a given game..... of course there may be one or two changes for specific tactical reasons, injuries and suspensions but ultimately a team like ours will put out its best available players and we all now know who and what they can offer.....
which means with any substitution you are likely making your team worse in effect as to effectiveness coming in cold and often asked to play tactical roles out of position ...... tough call when you have to factor that in throughout a match with players on the pitch getting more tired and as you commented which are making them worse versions of themselves with a replacement bench ordinary at best in a tough pl some may say......

MOT

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

good points Stomper but substitutions are only effective if the next mans ability is comparable to the first man..... so if there is any drop off in quality your going to have a problem..... and to be fair it takes time for a team to gel together as savvy players and as individual personalities settling into the club.

to some degree some may say substitutions are far more impacted by squad depth than who is actually making the subs as for the most part coaches will typically select the best players they have available for a given game..... of course there may be one or two changes for specific tactical reasons, injuries and suspensions but ultimately a team like ours will put out its best available players and we all now know who and what they can offer.....
which means with any substitution you are likely making your team worse in effect as to effectiveness coming in cold and often asked to play tactical roles out of position ...... tough call when you have to factor that in throughout a match with players on the pitch getting more tired and as you commented which are making them worse versions of themselves with a replacement bench ordinary at best in a tough pl some may say......

MOT

We do have some quality on the bench - Longstaff, Tanaka and Gnonto come to
mind.

If they don’t get decent game time then they are likely to lack match sharpness, are likely to try to force it when they come on and if younger won’t develop.

If you look at the upper levels of coaching courses this becomes an element of it. Farke is hopeless at that.

Even worse than that I had been at games this season where Stach in particular dropped off by the evidence of my eyes and the mutterings of those around me after about 55 to 60 minutes and yet he is left on the pitch for about 20 or so minutes. In one of those games the momentum had changed so badly by the time subs wee made the game had shifted so much it least due to the 4 subs made by the oppo that the inevitable late goal and loss came.

We can pretend all we want it’s not a weakness but it has been a feature of Farke for years for all his other qualities. If we want to get better in this league then Farke needs to also improve areas that are his weaknesses.

For a short period when under severe pressure he made more subs and earlier and the results improved.

The stats suggest this, most fans I know this and the pundits are all talking about it too. It’s not being critical for the sake of it. It is just stating what seems pretty obvious.

[MrsORichSenior_]

We do have some quality on the bench - Longstaff, Tanaka and Gnonto come to
mind.

If they don?‚?’t get decent game time then they are likely to lack match sharpness, are likely to try to force it when they come on and if younger won?‚?’t develop.

If you look at the upper levels of coaching courses this becomes an element of it. Farke is hopeless at that.

Even worse than that I had been at games this season where Stach in particular dropped off by the evidence of my eyes and the mutterings of those around me after about 55 to 60 minutes and yet he is left on the pitch for about 20 or so minutes. In one of those games the momentum had changed so badly by the time subs wee made the game had shifted so much it least due to the 4 subs made by the oppo that the inevitable late goal and loss came.

We can pretend all we want it?‚?’s not a weakness but it has been a feature of Farke for years for all his other qualities. If we want to get better in this league then Farke needs to also improve areas that are his weaknesses.

For a short period when under severe pressure he made more subs and earlier and the results improved.

The stats suggest this, most fans I know this and the pundits are all talking about it too. It?‚?’s not being critical for the sake of it. It is just stating what seems pretty obvious.

horses for courses springs to mind Hopey, but for eleven players on the pitch in a tight game closing minutes then what is required if where protecting a narrow lead or draw.?

you mentioned about good players but when under defensive pressure you need a release to hold onto to the ball further up field for starters…so you can see now why Farkes hankering a lone striker to hold up the ball late into games primarily to relieve expected intense defensive pressure by wasting time with the key element to maintain possession when defending a lead.
players you mention are very direct admittedly but a loose run or pass resulting in loss of possession at the latter end of games then ideally you need a physically strong striker who can act as an outlet for clearances shielding the ball from defenders to allow midfielders and defenders to move up the pitch….thus breaking the pressure cycle and forcing opposing defenders to commit by drawing them out of position and allowing us to push up from defensive effectively shifting the game focal point from our own defensive third to the oppositions defence areas.
DCL is improving that part of his game but physically he?s not quite at it after the 60 min mark for me.
maybe Nmecha in time can improve in that area of his game but he does carry injuries constantly so how we use him has to be carefully considered likewise DCL.
my observation on Tanaka and Gnonto is their lack of physicality with Tanaka struggling with the physical demands of the pl….. hes often finding himself outmatched in 50/50 situations due to having no natural defensive aggression to disrupt the opponents game up his other attributes are outstanding and beautiful to watch when in possession ….likewise regarding Gnonto and his positioning and ball retention which has been rightly criticised at times at club level and international game time….in a nutshell both players are not making enough successful tackles to consistently break up play which is a fundamental pl requirement nowadays for all players.

i obviously have bias eyes to defending as a unit as i see it from a keepers view point and what he ideally needs when his defence is under pressure in the closing stages... not knocking players current ability just concluding what i think is required maybe due to exposure in watching French, Italian and German league football particularly euro youth knock out comps.

MOT

[whitestomper45]

good points Stomper but substitutions are only effective if the next mans ability is comparable to the first man..... so if there is any drop off in quality your going to have a problem..... and to be fair it takes time for a team to gel together as savvy players and as individual personalities settling into the club.

to some degree some may say substitutions are far more impacted by squad depth than who is actually making the subs as for the most part coaches will typically select the best players they have available for a given game..... of course there may be one or two changes for specific tactical reasons, injuries and suspensions but ultimately a team like ours will put out its best available players and we all now know who and what they can offer.....
which means with any substitution you are likely making your team worse in effect as to effectiveness coming in cold and often asked to play tactical roles out of position ...... tough call when you have to factor that in throughout a match with players on the pitch getting more tired and as you commented which are making them worse versions of themselves with a replacement bench ordinary at best in a tough pl some may say......

MOT

The late goals we concede are mainly down to defensive errors/switching off (fatigue) , confusion with whose marking who... our midfield blowing a gasket (as Hopey mentions Stach was clearly burnt out on at least 2 occasions).. There is nothing worse for a player coming on as a sub in the last minutes of a game, its not even contributing to any match fitness... Our poor record for conceding late was highlighted on MOTD recently... whichever way we want to argue the pros and cons... it aint working

[norfolk white]

We need to be three goals up with 2 minutes to go before I relax, I always know if we?re leading 1 nil the opposition will ALWAYS equalise at best, then score an even later winner to give me that final kick in the guts.

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

The late goals we concede are mainly down to defensive errors/switching off (fatigue) , confusion with whose marking who... our midfield blowing a gasket (as Hopey mentions Stach was clearly burnt out on at least 2 occasions).. There is nothing worse for a player coming on as a sub in the last minutes of a game, its not even contributing to any match fitness... Our poor record for conceding late was highlighted on MOTD recently... whichever way we want to argue the pros and cons... it aint working

Completely agree and why would any sqaud player sign for us to be faced with so few opportunities to get minutes.

Rothwell and Tanaka were stellar for us but only got their chance through injuries to others. For the first two games they weren?t great as lack of match time meant a lack of sharpensss. Farke had to play them as there was no one else fit and then they got the rhythm and were excellent.

I can?t believe people try to defend that as it a clear Farke weakness. That is not to say he doesn?t have strengths but those above him should be making him adapt.

It?s football management 102 and not rocket science.

[whitestomper45]

Completely agree and why would any sqaud player sign for us to be faced with so few opportunities to get minutes.

Rothwell and Tanaka were stellar for us but only got their chance through injuries to others. For the first two games they weren?t great as lack of match time meant a lack of sharpensss. Farke had to play them as there was no one else fit and then they got the rhythm and were excellent.

I can?t believe people try to defend that as it a clear Farke weakness. That is not to say he doesn?t have strengths but those above him should be making him adapt.

It?s football management 102 and not rocket science.

Hopey, 102 is that a reference to:
Football Periodization to Maximise Performance: Session Design - The Training Week - Tapering Strategy - 102 Practices - Youth to Pro

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

Hopey, 102 is that a reference to:
Football Periodization to Maximise Performance: Session Design - The Training Week - Tapering Strategy - 102 Practices - Youth to Pro

😎 probably but was intended as a step up from 101 but not much of one 🤔😇🤣

[Billyni]

Sooo, for the benefit of a layman such as myself,
Is it the fault of the players for retreating and not adapting to the opposition pressure in the last 15 minutes,
Or does the blame lie with someone else who can’t see what’s happening and make the appropriate adjustments/changes to alleviate the pressure from the opposition during these final minutes.
A simple answer for a simple man will suffice.

[Billyni]

Wolves who are supposedly gone, didn't lose any last minute goals v villa.

[norfolk white]

Nope, but very annoyingly we did

[WTF11]

Sooo, for the benefit of a layman such as myself,
Is it the fault of the players for retreating and not adapting to the opposition pressure in the last 15 minutes,
Or does the blame lie with someone else who can’t see what’s happening and make the appropriate adjustments/changes to alleviate the pressure from the opposition during these final minutes.
A simple answer for a simple man will suffice.

The latter.