Ok, not football at all, but it matters, eventually.

[WTF11]

Tad touchy tonight or an attempt to provoke ?

I was replying to Spaldy & not extemporaneously, to give someone intetested the information to understand something regarding the global economy competition facing his country, the USA & the effects of external cyber security to global economies & its effects on populace including America & little old UK.

Of course i could have included the rise of African influence with regard to Trumps trading plans or the fact African governments have increasingly welcomed economic, diplomatic & security ties with Russia, leading Western countries to denounce what they see as Moscow’s destabilizing influence too.

But i shall refrain from comment on how Russia "actually" thinks now on the USA under Trump, despite the fact a family member with boots on the ground is living in Moscow working for French media tv there currently & who has access to news conferences including Putins comments uttered today & the Trump effect on Russian people as to the perceived effect read by some outside of that country.

Anyway, your greater knowledge no doubt would denounce all that as not being acceptable & unworthy for Spaldys attention & indeed for your own grey matter.

To coin your favoured phrase when trying to belittle me, "you let yourself down there".
So i'll throw said phrase back on you & take my unwanted recently sharpened quill elsewhere.
Good evening.

And the fact.you have a family member working in Moscow is supposed to engender sympathy, understanding, empathy even? Go to the Ukraine fromtline where doctors, teachers, streetsweepers, nurses and so many other "normal" people have been drawn into conflict not of their making but who felt compelled to resist. THEN get alll pilosophical.

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

Careful, if you bash those keys any harder you may do yourself an injury.

MT sure the rest of us understood what you were trying to say.

[MrsORichSenior_]

Careful, if you bash those keys any harder you may do yourself an injury.

MT sure the rest of us understood what you were trying to say.

American & UK politics have not been great since the 1970s...... maybe down to the philosophy of Thatcher & Reagan that they left.

Thatcher's policies were associated with substantial increases in socioeconomic and health inequalities....... these issues were actively marginalized and ignored by her governments.

If you graph productivity growth in the USA and increased income for workers in the USA for a 100 years....... then the two lines in the graph grow together up until about 1980 when Reagan was elected and thereafter productivity continues to rise but worker wages stil stay pretty flat.

The Ronald Reagan method of shrinking the government was to pay private companies more than it cost the government to do many of the things federal government used to do.... ....... this resulted in lots of talent leaving the federal government and going to those companies.......... because private companies are not actually known for honest business practices the federal government wasted lots of money for cr@p........ leading to an additional cost of hiring federal workers who were experts in the field to oversee the projects and call out companies for being dishonest........ nothing changed really since regarding.........

Possibly an outsiders view from me that anyone is welcome to correct........ as I have an open mind regarding global politics due to clients who engage me...... but in all honesty there are to many clowns in governments today offering nothing conceptually new apart from pseudo personalities.

Football & Politics not a great mix on footie forums....... as Dutch Police will testify today after violence against fans in Amsterdam...... nuff said !

MOT

[spaldy]

The Nazi Germany prior to WW2 was one of the best fighting machines ever assembled. Modern state of the are weaponry including the worlds best Air Force,Navy and weaponry. Brilliant commanders, well trained and motivated fighting troops. Russia has none of that. Frankly, China doesn't either but they steal technology better than any country in the world so they likley will have a technical equivalancy.

MT, your post caused me some contemplation last night. An an old yank I'm still kind of hard wired to the fact that great weaponry wins you a war. After reading your post and thinking a bit I realized full blast the next way isn't likely to be won by the best plane, ships or weaponry. They will still be critical in tactical battle plans but the real winner is likley to be someone that can shut the power grid down, disable cars and any equipment that runs with computer chips, and eliminate all of the digital currency. All of this from afar with no shots actually being fired. I knew this but never really processed the full extent of it. It's also really scary the rush to AI and robot fighting equipment.

[ozleeds]

The Nazi Germany prior to WW2 was one of the best fighting machines ever assembled. Modern state of the are weaponry including the worlds best Air Force,Navy and weaponry. Brilliant commanders, well trained and motivated fighting troops. Russia has none of that. Frankly, China doesn't either but they steal technology better than any country in the world so they likley will have a technical equivalancy.

MT, your post caused me some contemplation last night. An an old yank I'm still kind of hard wired to the fact that great weaponry wins you a war. After reading your post and thinking a bit I realized full blast the next way isn't likely to be won by the best plane, ships or weaponry. They will still be critical in tactical battle plans but the real winner is likley to be someone that can shut the power grid down, disable cars and any equipment that runs with computer chips, and eliminate all of the digital currency. All of this from afar with no shots actually being fired. I knew this but never really processed the full extent of it. It's also really scary the rush to AI and robot fighting equipment.

Correct Spaldy on tech. there is a lot of ways to win wars than fighting. Take India with making 90% of the worlds medicine as they like China copied other countries intentioned and how do they get away with it who knows. They can temper the medicine and kill millions. People are waking up to China but only a handful are stopping them eg Taiwan. People were laughing when they tried to take over the world with Haiwe tech till they were caught as they thought it was a hox. On the other side we won't need wars to destroy ourselves as you say technology will kill us as it already is with exploding cars, house's on fire due to scooters and well batteries everywhere the whole world will blow up as one blows and the rest go up at the same time.

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

Part of the challenge with modern governments is they are unable and/or unwilling to have a proper debate about the big issues.

They also don’t seem to get the maxim that just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Hey ho!!

[WTF11]

The Nazi Germany prior to WW2 was one of the best fighting machines ever assembled. Modern state of the are weaponry including the worlds best Air Force,Navy and weaponry. Brilliant commanders, well trained and motivated fighting troops. Russia has none of that. Frankly, China doesn't either but they steal technology better than any country in the world so they likley will have a technical equivalancy.

MT, your post caused me some contemplation last night. An an old yank I'm still kind of hard wired to the fact that great weaponry wins you a war. After reading your post and thinking a bit I realized full blast the next way isn't likely to be won by the best plane, ships or weaponry. They will still be critical in tactical battle plans but the real winner is likley to be someone that can shut the power grid down, disable cars and any equipment that runs with computer chips, and eliminate all of the digital currency. All of this from afar with no shots actually being fired. I knew this but never really processed the full extent of it. It's also really scary the rush to AI and robot fighting equipment.

Agreed on the observation regarding how new conflicts might be fought and won, but that statement regarding Nazi Germany having "the best Air Force, Navy and weaponry"???????? Who there fella!!!

A few tidbits regarding what naval assets they had available to them, how "effective" they were at fighting and also "who had what" when it came to air power;

Firstly, I agree with the comment regarding commanders etc. A large part of the allied armies problems at the outbreak of WWII stemmed from the inability to find commanding officers capable of dealing with modern warfare and the development of tactics that were appropriate to that new way of waging war.

Observations on the Naval front;

Graf Spee was scuttled just off Montevideo on evening of Sunday, December 17, 1939 (about 14 weeks after war was declared), in the face of overwhelming British naval forces.

Bismark, the largest and most powerful capital ship in the Kriegsmarine, only sailed once. In May 1941, Bismark took part in an offensive operation codenamed Rheinübung, which resulted in the sinking of HMS Hood (the only vessel to be sunk by Bismark). Bismarcks single major operation lasted just over a week and ended in its destruction by the Royal Navy in the North Atlantic on May 27, 1941.

Tirpitz hid in Norwegian Fjords for almost the whole of its operational life, damaged in an attack by British mini-submarines and large-scale air raids. On 12 November 1944, RAF Lancaster bombers from 617 and 9 squadrons, equipped with 12,000-pound "Tallboy" bombs scored two direct hits and a near miss which caused the ship to capsize rapidly. It never sailed on offensive operations and fired its main armament just once when bombarding Spitzbergen island.

All these ships were in service with that "best navy" at the start of hostilities, but there's not much point having nice shiny toys with big guns if you're too afraid of your opponents to use them?

Where the Kreigsmarine was considerably better off was in the submarine fleet, which very nearly led to the British starving, that I'll give you!

And the air forces?

As the Battle of Britain began in July 1940, RAF Fighter Command had approximately 768 aircraft after the squandering of many during the failed attempt to help the French during the battle for France. Of that number, only 520 were still considered battleworthy. Due to aircraft manufacturers plans for increased production however, particularly distributed production centres making interdiction by German bombers less damaging, this situation improved radically over the next few weeks. By the time the Germans offensive reached its peak in early August, the number of RAF fighters available almost doubled to just over 1,000. British aircraft manufacturers were producing around 500 fighters per month (double the number estimated by German intelligence).

Equipment was not the main concern for Fighter Command, the availability of trained pilots was. The German airforce had had substantial operational experience during the Spanish Civil war, when Hitler assisted the forces under Franco. The experience for both fighter and bomber crews was of great value to the Luftwaffe during the Blitzkreig operations and during the early part of the Battle of Britain (less so as more RAF pilots gained the requisite battle experience and attrition rates fell).

At this time of the war, monthly Luftwaffe fighter production was approximately 300 airframes. However, German production capacity wasn't fully mobilized and failed to produce enough 109s required to overwhelm Fighter Command. By September 7, the Luftwaffe was down to just 533 fighters and temporarily dipped as low as 275. Given these comparative numbers early on the "real war (the "phony war having lasted from September 1939, until May of 1940), the RAF held a significant numerical advantage in both planes available and production capacity.[/B]

The RAF had aircraft broadly equal to those frontline fighters in the Luftwaffe, (Spitfire and Hurricane vs Messerchmitt BF109). The Spitfire had superior climbing speed and turn rates, was slightly slower in level flight and unlike the Bf109 employed a normally aspirated fuel system, meaning inverted flight was very limited. The Hurricane was slower still, and was used during the Battle of Britain as the major bomber attacking force given its superior gun platform performance. The Messerschmitt 110 and Junkers 87 were considerably less of a threat to the RAF, to such an extent that the Ju87 (Stuka) was withdrawn from combat operations after suffering catastrophic losses during attempts to bomb RAF coastal radar stations.

The Luftwaffe was never really that superior, only in numerical terms at the outset of the war and only then for a brief period. What's also worth noting is that the RAF had one crucial technical advantage over the Luftwaffe, radar. Without radar and the associated plotting and fighter control room network, the RAF is unlikely to have been able to maintain a constant airborne presence which would have been required to identify Luftwaffe raids. Without it it's equally unlikely that the RAF would have succeeded in winning the battle.

So yes, the German armed forces had some advantages at the outset of WWII, but the best? Nope.

[george_kaplan]

Agreed on the observation regarding how new conflicts might be fought and won, but that statement regarding Nazi Germany having "the best Air Force, Navy and weaponry"???????? Who there fella!!!

A few tidbits regarding what naval assets they had available to them, how "effective" they were at fighting and also "who had what" when it came to air power;

Firstly, I agree with the comment regarding commanders etc. A large part of the allied armies problems at the outbreak of WWII stemmed from the inability to find commanding officers capable of dealing with modern warfare and the development of tactics that were appropriate to that new way of waging war.

Observations on the Naval front;

Graf Spee was scuttled just off Montevideo on evening of Sunday, December 17, 1939 (about 14 weeks after war was declared), in the face of overwhelming British naval forces.

Bismark, the largest and most powerful capital ship in the Kriegsmarine, only sailed once. In May 1941, Bismark took part in an offensive operation codenamed Rheinübung, which resulted in the sinking of HMS Hood (the only vessel to be sunk by Bismark). Bismarcks single major operation lasted just over a week and ended in its destruction by the Royal Navy in the North Atlantic on May 27, 1941.

Tirpitz hid in Norwegian Fjords for almost the whole of its operational life, damaged in an attack by British mini-submarines and large-scale air raids. On 12 November 1944, RAF Lancaster bombers from 617 and 9 squadrons, equipped with 12,000-pound "Tallboy" bombs scored two direct hits and a near miss which caused the ship to capsize rapidly. It never sailed on offensive operations and fired its main armament just once when bombarding Spitzbergen island.

All these ships were in service with that "best navy" at the start of hostilities, but there's not much point having nice shiny toys with big guns if you're too afraid of your opponents to use them?

Where the Kreigsmarine was considerably better off was in the submarine fleet, which very nearly led to the British starving, that I'll give you!

And the air forces?

As the Battle of Britain began in July 1940, RAF Fighter Command had approximately 768 aircraft after the squandering of many during the failed attempt to help the French during the battle for France. Of that number, only 520 were still considered battleworthy. Due to aircraft manufacturers plans for increased production however, particularly distributed production centres making interdiction by German bombers less damaging, this situation improved radically over the next few weeks. By the time the Germans offensive reached its peak in early August, the number of RAF fighters available almost doubled to just over 1,000. British aircraft manufacturers were producing around 500 fighters per month (double the number estimated by German intelligence).

Equipment was not the main concern for Fighter Command, the availability of trained pilots was. The German airforce had had substantial operational experience during the Spanish Civil war, when Hitler assisted the forces under Franco. The experience for both fighter and bomber crews was of great value to the Luftwaffe during the Blitzkreig operations and during the early part of the Battle of Britain (less so as more RAF pilots gained the requisite battle experience and attrition rates fell).

At this time of the war, monthly Luftwaffe fighter production was approximately 300 airframes. However, German production capacity wasn't fully mobilized and failed to produce enough 109s required to overwhelm Fighter Command. By September 7, the Luftwaffe was down to just 533 fighters and temporarily dipped as low as 275. Given these comparative numbers early on the "real war (the "phony war having lasted from September 1939, until May of 1940), the RAF held a significant numerical advantage in both planes available and production capacity.[/B]

The RAF had aircraft broadly equal to those frontline fighters in the Luftwaffe, (Spitfire and Hurricane vs Messerchmitt BF109). The Spitfire had superior climbing speed and turn rates, was slightly slower in level flight and unlike the Bf109 employed a normally aspirated fuel system, meaning inverted flight was very limited. The Hurricane was slower still, and was used during the Battle of Britain as the major bomber attacking force given its superior gun platform performance. The Messerschmitt 110 and Junkers 87 were considerably less of a threat to the RAF, to such an extent that the Ju87 (Stuka) was withdrawn from combat operations after suffering catastrophic losses during attempts to bomb RAF coastal radar stations.

The Luftwaffe was never really that superior, only in numerical terms at the outset of the war and only then for a brief period. What's also worth noting is that the RAF had one crucial technical advantage over the Luftwaffe, radar. Without radar and the associated plotting and fighter control room network, the RAF is unlikely to have been able to maintain a constant airborne presence which would have been required to identify Luftwaffe raids. Without it it's equally unlikely that the RAF would have succeeded in winning the battle.

So yes, the German armed forces had some advantages at the outset of WWII, but the best? Nope.

Brilliant post mate…

[Billyni]

The covid virus almost stopped the world.
But a computer virus will definitely stop it.

Those who are older, and if fit, will know how to work and live without a computer. They stand a chance.
The rest are gone.

[george_kaplan]

The covid virus almost stopped the world.
But a computer virus will definitely stop it.

Those who are older, and if fit, will know how to work and live without a computer. They stand a chance.
The rest are gone.

It’s a good point you make, our generation are the last to have lived before this (sigh) computer generation who have lost the power of thought…

The virus was a flex of muscle.

[WTF11]

The covid virus almost stopped the world.
But a computer virus will definitely stop it.

Those who are older, and if fit, will know how to work and live without a computer. They stand a chance.
The rest are gone.

Agreed, and FWIW I'm reasonably fit and definitely "older" so maybe I'll be around a while longer (I know that will delight certain contributors!&#128521

[BelfastAndy]

Agreed, and FWIW I'm reasonably fit and definitely "older" so maybe I'll be around a while longer (I know that will delight certain contributors!&#128521

Don't threaten us! Lol

[WTF11]

So, we get Robert F Kennedy Jr nominated as health secretary with zero previous experience in that field, and a chap who is under investigation for child *** trafficking as Attorney General. Only in America.

We have our "issues, but nevertheless I hope you transatlantic dudes are proud of your "democracy".

[WTF11]

And a Republican Senate and House will resist the insanity? I think not. The lunatics have quite clearly taken control of the asylum. Heaven help us all.

[ozleeds]

The covid virus almost stopped the world.
But a computer virus will definitely stop it.

Those who are older, and if fit, will know how to work and live without a computer. They stand a chance.
The rest are gone.

How true Billy over here the tv channel go down and people get panicky lol Unfortunately they going computer everything even tv you won't use an antenna. We had a breakdown here and you can't go shopping because people can't count if you got cash and if not well can't use a card computers are down