O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[Jampie]

Not if you can get your enemy scared enough to believe its' deadly, as we found to our cost.

The Mirror 24th January 2020

"Chilling footage shows people collapsed in the streets as they're treated by medics in hazmat suits in Wuhan, China.
People can be seen lying motionless on the ground in the city which has been placed on lockdown following the outbreak of a coronavirus outbreak.
Wuhan pneumonia is the name for a new coronavirus which has struck down 41 people since breaking out in the Chinese city of Wuhan, which has been dubbed 'zombieland'."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...reets-21347952

The stats China was publishing indicated it killed something like 1 in 25 of confirmed cases, and made it abundantly clear they weren't confirming anywhere near all of the cases. i.e. it was killing far fewer in than 1 in 25. (edit for reference the real number appears to have been closer to 1 in 200)

Mind you, those stats were more than enough for me to want the government here to shut the airports and instigate hard quarantine, but they delayed several weeks and we had thousands of cases when they finally did so.

At any rate, that isn't consistent with what you're suggesting. Why claim numbers so "low" if you were trying to maximise panic? And what would China gain out of panic in the West, especially panic that would fade once the real numbers were discovered?

And there were, btw, people literally found dead in the streets in Wuhan although obviously that was a very rare occurrence with most victims dying in medical facilities or their homes as you'd expect.

[upthemaggies]

The stats China was publishing indicated it killed something like 1 in 25 of confirmed cases, and made it abundantly clear they weren't confirming anywhere near all of the cases. i.e. it was killing far fewer in than 1 in 25. (edit for reference the real number appears to have been closer to 1 in 200)

Mind you, those stats were more than enough for me to want the government here to shut the airports and instigate hard quarantine, but they delayed several weeks and we had thousands of cases when they finally did so.

At any rate, that isn't consistent with what you're suggesting. Why claim numbers so "low" if you were trying to maximise panic? And what would China gain out of panic in the West, especially panic that would fade once the real numbers were discovered?

And there were, btw, people literally found dead in the streets in Wuhan although obviously that was a very rare occurrence with most victims dying in medical facilities or their homes as you'd expect.

BBC were reporting that January that 25% of infections were "Serious" and The WHO around 20% were causing pneumonia or worse, largely based on what China was telling them. The panic that ensued is there for all to see.

That said, I don't want to be pushed into making a case for China doing it deliberately in the belief it would damage the west whilst they'd be able to contain it much easier, because I think the US were equally to blame.

My hunch is that it reached the stage where they wanted to test their lab creation's ability to spread easily between humans using a strain that they thought was as harmless as the common cold (which it was for the most part), but hadn't bargained for the complications with the old and vulnerable, nor given any thought to long term effects.

[BigFatPie]

Who is going to tell Premier League players that they can only earn 15 x the pay of, say, someone working in the ticket office?

Totally unworkable!

If you’re not wiling to support more pay equality because it might upset premier league footballers then you’re probably not as committed to it as you thought!

[Jampie]

BBC were reporting that January that 25% of infections were "Serious" and The WHO around 20% were causing pneumonia or worse, largely based on what China was telling them. The panic that ensued is there for all to see.

Unless you mean Pete Townsend said it, could you link to somewhere where the world health organisation was claiming a 20% pneumonia rate? Cos I have zero memory of that happening.

That said, I don't want to be pushed into making a case for China doing it deliberately in the belief it would damage the west whilst they'd be able to contain it much easier, because I think the US were equally to blame.

My hunch is that it reached the stage where they wanted to test their lab creation's ability to spread easily between humans using a strain that they thought was as harmless as the common cold (which it was for the most part), but hadn't bargained for the complications with the old and vulnerable, nor given any thought to long term effects.

Ok... then what does the US get out of it? Trump was in charge at the time and denied the virus was serious, claimed it was going to magically go away etc and refused to take action for so long that the US suffered as badly as the UK did in terms of deaths before vaccines were available.

For the record I am happy to consider "conspiracy" theories if they actually make sense. But nobody's come up with one for covid's origins that doesn't sound utterly ridiculous.

There was absolutely a massive conspiracy by people with vested financial interests in not shutting down economies, to pretend the whole thing wasn't happening / wasn't serious / would magically go away on its own / lockdowns were necessary or useful etc etc. All lies that wealthy media owners thought were in their interests to spread. As it happened, they were wrong about that as well; economic impacts were significantly worse because the virus wasn't controlled.

[JoePass]

Unless you mean Pete Townsend said it, could you link to somewhere where the world health organisation was claiming a 20% pneumonia rate? Cos I have zero memory of that happening.



Ok... then what does the US get out of it? Trump was in charge at the time and denied the virus was serious, claimed it was going to magically go away etc and refused to take action for so long that the US suffered as badly as the UK did in terms of deaths before vaccines were available.

For the record I am happy to consider "conspiracy" theories if they actually make sense. But nobody's come up with one for covid's origins that doesn't sound utterly ridiculous.

There was absolutely a massive conspiracy by people with vested financial interests in not shutting down economies, to pretend the whole thing wasn't happening / wasn't serious / would magically go away on its own / lockdowns were necessary or useful etc etc. All lies that wealthy media owners thought were in their interests to spread. As it happened, they were wrong about that as well; economic impacts were significantly worse because the virus wasn't controlled.

I blame Brexit.

[upthemaggies]

Unless you mean Pete Townsend said it, could you link to somewhere where the world health organisation was claiming a 20% pneumonia rate? Cos I have zero memory of that happening.

20% severe cases, not just pneumonia.

"WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, who visited China this week, said most people who contracted the virus were suffering only "milder symptoms", but about 20% had severe effects such as pneumonia and respiratory failure."
BBC Jan 2020.

Ok... then what does the US get out of it? For the record I am happy to consider "conspiracy" theories if they actually make sense. .

US war machine, pharma and big tech all had vested interests in this research continuing despite it being banned on US soil. So not a conspiracy as such, just different organisations sensing an opportunity to strengthen their position on the world stage and/or make big money.

[Jampie]

20% severe cases, not just pneumonia.

"WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, who visited China this week, said most people who contracted the virus were suffering only "milder symptoms", but about 20% had severe effects such as pneumonia and respiratory failure."
BBC Jan 2020.

That sounds rather high. What was the context? Was he talking about cases presented at medical facilities, which naturally skew more severe? Did he mention that he expected most cases were not being detected, even in totalitarian China?

US war machine, pharma and big tech all had vested interests in this research continuing despite it being banned on US soil. So not a conspiracy as such, just different organisations sensing an opportunity to strengthen their position on the world stage and/or make big money.

That plausibly explains the research happening (although I see no military application for covid-19, there are far better candidates for biological warfare), it doesn't explain a deliberate leak or something.

We know the research was happening, that's a matter of public record.

[Elite_Pie]

I blame Brexit.

Whatever thread you post that comment on, you would be right 95% of the time.

Big improvement, normally you're wrong 95% of the time.

[Elite_Pie]

A challenging day for the leadership tomorrow, with not one but three by-elections taking place. All are usually safe Tory seats, but now who wins is in the hands of the electorate. By-elections tend to go against whoever is in power so you can't read too much into the results.
It will take a big swing for the Tories to lose one of them, and a massive swing to lose the other two.

Somerset and Frome - a huge majority for the Tories of over 19,000 votes looks highly likely to be overturned in favour of the LibDems.

Uxbridge and South Ruislip - vacant because of the resignation of Boris Johnson, who had a majority of over 7,000 at the last election. If Labour want to take power they have to win this, but the ULEZ issue might prove a spanner in the works.

Selby and Ainsty - a seat won by the Tories last time with a massive majority of over 20,000. Labour could easily overturn that, and if they do the Tory party will be sh!tting themselves.

I'll be watching with interest hoping this corrupt government get the severe kicking they deserve.

[Magpies1959]

'Watching with interest', more like wetting your pants, if the Tories lose all three. Whatever the results of the three by elections, the Tories will be out of power at the next election anyway, and quite frankly I don't give a f*ck, as the country has already become a spineless, shadow of it's once great past. We will just a nodding dog to the WEF and the WHO, (even if the Tories stay in power).
Thank god I am an old git, just feel sorry for the kids, not that they will know any better, as they are educated by teachers who think it is ok to identify as a cat, and that it is ok to change our history.

[Elite_Pie]

'Watching with interest', more like wetting your pants, if the Tories lose all three.

If the Tories lose all three, I'm still hoping to retain bladder control.

Although I can't make any promises.

[the_anticlough]

I'll follow with mild interest...

All the souped up drama, and all the analysis, only obscures the basic fact that it reduces the tory majority from around 77 to 75 and that makes no practical difference whatsoever.

And then we'll have 3 new MPs.
I'm grateful to Matt Hancock for showing the nation what being a constituency MP really means in our system - sod all. Bugger off to an Australian jungle for weeks on end and it doesn't make a shred of difference to anything.
My only interest in the political system is seeing it changed root and branch. It isn't fit for purpose.

[Elite_Pie]

I'll follow with mild interest...

All the souped up drama, and all the analysis, only obscures the basic fact that it reduces the tory majority from around 77 to 75 and that makes no practical difference whatsoever.

I think their working majority is down to 60 now, but I agree it makes no practical difference. Although with the party in open civil war, it does take a few less rebels for them to lose a vote.

The important thing is the size of the majorities they stand to lose in what are traditionally safe seats. The only party I can really support at the moment is the ABTT party.

Anyone But The Tories.

[Magpies1959]

Reform Party?

[Elite_Pie]

Reform Party?

Maybe, if it was a very close race between them and the Tory.

The Reform Party will never amount to anything, and it would be another Tory booted out.