O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[Bohinen]

I don't often find myself saying positive things about Labour politicians, but a lot of what I've heard from Wes Streeting regarding NHS reform makes sense. The question is whether he means it sincerely, and whether he's prepared for the inevitable battle if he's genuine about trying to make it happen.

I wish I had your faith in him. It's pretty clear that Streeting just comes out with platitudes designed, frankly, to placate people like you. Reform is actually the last thing the NHS needs, it is still suffering from the last set of reforms designed by Lansley.

You know, the ridiculous internal market where tenders are issued by a group of GPs, and people in health care have to respond with their offering, and, you've guessed it, the cheapest one wins. Then, when the 'winners' find they can't actually provide the services for the money they quoted, those services are cut and patients suffer.

I used to respond to tenders in this way in the IT sector, but if we messed up, the worst case scenario, a bank or retailer would have a sub-par computer system, whereas in health, people die, or at the least are left in pain. This is no way to run a health service.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...us-nhs-reforms

[jackal2]

What experience/knowledge are you basing all that on?

A lot more than you probably think, and possibly more than you have yourself, but that's our own business isn't it.

As far as this message board's concerned, we're just two people with opinions like everyone else, and posters are free to agree or disagree regardless of how much experience they've got or from where. Besides, in some cases, people observing from a distance can see the big picture better than those stood close to it or even in it, so experience and knowledge aren't a guarantee of accurate perception.

[Med Pie]

True. And if you can get to a situation where the existing money is spent more efficiently and produces the right outcomes for patients, then you'll have a more accurate picture of which areas are genuinely under-resourced and which areas are/were just badly run, which in turn means you can allocate 'new' money to the right places.

You blame all the mess on inefficiency but what we need is to build hospitals and provide the beds, doctors and nurses, that we need. Patients are waiting years for treatment, not because of inefficiency, neither is that the reason for packed A+E departments. The entire system is in need of massive, expansion to accommodate the huge increase in population.

[jackal2]

I wish I had your faith in him. It's pretty clear that Streeting just comes out with platitudes designed, frankly, to placate people like you. Reform is actually the last thing the NHS needs, it is still suffering from the last set of reforms designed by Lansley.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I have "faith" in Wes Streeting. What I said above is that I've heard more sense from him than most Labour politicians on the subject, but I did caveat that by saying "if" he's genuine. You could well be right that he's just trying to placate a certain audience, in which case he'll come unstuck over time.

I would agree that no Government of any political persuasion has so far come close to successfully reforming the NHS, not least because it's such an unwieldy and impractical beast, but they need to keep trying. I don't agree that "reform is the last thing the NHS needs", because frankly without some kind of change of direction it will simply collapse and die under its own weight, and possibly not that far into the future.

The issue often gets bogged down in public versus private ownership debates. As I've intimated above, I don't actually have a problem with the NHS being publicly run, but too often in public sector organisations it's difficult or impossible to get rid of bad or self-indulgent practitioners or administrators who should not be there. The key to making things work a lot better is to be able to identify and get rid of those bad eggs far more quickly (and make sure they don't return in another guise). Aside from patients and service users, some of the people who get most frustrated with the public sector's inability to do this are those public sector employees desperately trying to make their organisation the best it can be.

[jackal2]

You blame all the mess on inefficiency but what we need is to build hospitals and provide the beds, doctors and nurses, that we need. Patients are waiting years for treatment, not because of inefficiency, neither is that the reason for packed A+E departments. The entire system is in need of massive, expansion to accommodate the huge increase in population.

Those two things aren't an either/or. You're probably right about the need for infrastructure expansion, but surely if you're going to embark on that project then it makes sense for the internal operating system to be in an optimum state so you get the best out of those new resources in which you're investing a considerable amount of public money.

I don't blame "all the mess on inefficiency", but I do recognise that far too much of it exists - you would have to be blind or deluded not to - and so the aim must be for reform and expansion to go hand in hand. (Plus, in some cases, if you get the existing systems working to the max, you might realise there isn't as much need for resource or physical capacity expansion as you first thought, but that has to be judged on an individual service basis.)

[i961pie]

I see they have dug up Lord Mandleson to be our ambassador to the USA. Should be very interesting as he ,called Trump a white nationalist racist. That should be ok then.😜

[Old_pie]

I see they have dug up Lord Mandleson to be our ambassador to the USA. Should be very interesting as he ,called Trump a white nationalist racist. That should be ok then.😜

Who'd have thought WWIII could be between them and us!

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-campaign-co-manager-calls-lord-peter-mandelson-an-absolute-moron-as-peer-is-confirmed-as-starmers-new-us-ambassador-13277216

Trump campaign co-manager calls Lord Peter Mandelson an 'absolute moron' as peer is confirmed as Starmer's new US ambassador

In a post on X, Chris LaCivita linked to an article reporting on Lord Mandelson describing Donald Trump as "a danger to the world". The peer also described Mr Trump as "little short of a white nationalist and racist", according to the article.

[Lullapie]

Starmer seems to be pursuing more of an isolationist policy than Trump.

To be honest though, it doesn?t look like the Americans give a stuff about the UK.

The ones I have been talking to are either super excited about Trump getting into power or terrified about the world coming to an end when he does.

The talk over here currently is more about another budget spending blow out and the possibility that the US government could shut down.

[Med Pie]

Charges against two of the men in the Manchester airport incident, no charges against the police.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLmJDPIq08

[BigFatPie]

A lot more than you probably think, and possibly more than you have yourself, but that's our own business isn't it.

As far as this message board's concerned, we're just two people with opinions like everyone else, and posters are free to agree or disagree regardless of how much experience they've got or from where. Besides, in some cases, people observing from a distance can see the big picture better than those stood close to it or even in it, so experience and knowledge aren't a guarantee of accurate perception.

No need to be defensive, you?ve written 3 longish paragraphs about the problems in the NHS, youre opinion becomes a lot more interesting if you have some sort of inside knowledge. Any critique of the NHS which doesnt start with the slump in per capita spending and the complete failure to overhaul social care is piss and wind.

Johnson promised 40 new hospitals and to fix social care and delivered neither.

[SinceSept1959]

Meanwhile a convicted criminal has been deported back to his country of birth thanks to the efforts of Derbyshire Constabularly Staff.
The Czech national was a threat to his neighbours over a period of time and was successfully deported , to serve his sentence , after determined efforts by the force and International Liason officers.
In stark contrast, a convicted major drugs lord,from Turkiye, sentenced to 16 years for his misery inducing activities, cannot be deported to serve his sentence.
HR lawyers have successfully used the ECHR Laws to ensure that " he has a right to a family life."
Unfortunately, that right to a (normal) family life is not extended to his victims and their families !
The UK Tax Payers of course covering the expenses of his prison sentence and the incomes of the HR Lawyers.

[jackal2]

No need to be defensive, you?ve written 3 longish paragraphs about the problems in the NHS, youre opinion becomes a lot more interesting if you have some sort of inside knowledge. Any critique of the NHS which doesnt start with the slump in per capita spending and the complete failure to overhaul social care is piss and wind.

Johnson promised 40 new hospitals and to fix social care and delivered neither.

I answered your question so I'm not quite sure how you deem that to be 'defensive', but I love the idea of you positioning your good self as the arbiter of 'piss and wind'.

It's true I did write three longish paragraphs giving my views about the problems in the NHS, and to answer your question again, I do have 'some sort of inside knowledge', but I'm not asking anyone to give extra weight to my view or find my opinion 'interesting' on that basis. People will either recognise some truth in what I'm saying based on their own experiences or they won't, and either is fine.

Like I said above, some people with 'inside knowledge' are too close to the action to see the bigger picture, and if that inside knowledge involves being one of the poor practitioners or gravy train riders who should be kicked out by any successful reform of the NHS, then I fully understand why they would rail against reform and fall back on all the usual cliched arguments around funding.

I've also already acknowledged above that no Government so far of any political persuasion has been successful in reforming the NHS (or social care), and I've actually expressed hope of something more positive based on Labour politician Wes Streeting's words, so if he does better than Boris Johnson and many before him, then fair play to Wes. As Bohinen says, there may be a fair amount of 'piss and wind' coming from Mr Streeting himself, and if that's the case then Wes will end up just another on the long list of people who failed to save the NHS, but I'm willing to wait and see what he does and achieves before judging him.

[forwardmagpie]

I didn?t address your question as I didn't disagree with you.

So can I take it you agree with the farmers and this policy should be changed.

You agree the winter fuel allowance was introduced too quickly.

I agree with you on the WASPI claims and that Starmer, Reeves and Kendall made an error standing with the placards.

I don?t agree with the farmers being taxed when the are passing farms onto their children but I 100% agree with non farmers being heavily taxed.

I disagree with you that the other things are bad faith right wing press if you think the optics in some of these stories (which are true) are bad we live in a different world.

I have no view on the Chagos Islands as I know nout about them but the speed and seemingly underhand way the deal was done again seem poor management.


You haven?t mentioned the ?22 billion black which it appears trying to fix with will in my opinion a ludicrous budget that will cost jobs, raise inflation and stunt growth. I believe this will need another budget with more tax rises. This government should have 5 years to see if it can fix things after a disastrous Tory government but I don?t believe it can.

I strongly believe that Brexit will be a good thing for the UK but like this government we will only know in years to come. I have no faith in the EU and its ludicrous parliament but wouldn?t be against a Common market although that may have been tried before.

We probably disagree about funding as I think more funding is needed in public services but it must be linked to wholesale changes in how things are run. We don?t need the money spend on more management which appears to have happened in the past.


I think I did apply those standards at the last election and didn?t vote for the incumbent government as they did not deserve my vote. I hope you will think the same in 2029 if this government does not deserve your vote.

I hope I have also answered in good faith

I addressed your points BFP but whilst you asked for interaction you seem loath to reply.

[BigFatPie]

I addressed your points BFP but whilst you asked for interaction you seem loath to reply.

I’m not really sure what you want me to say. I know quite a few farmers and they have differing opinions on the inheritance tax thing so you kind of misrepresent me when you say I agree with the farmers. We should remember though that no one likes paying tax but schools/hospitals/dustbins dont pay for themselves. We obviously agree on some things and not on others, we also possibly live in a different world. You think the budget will prove to be rubbish and Brexit will eventually turn out to be great(when and how?) i suppose time will tell us whos right.

[forwardmagpie]

I’m not really sure what you want me to say. I know quite a few farmers and they have differing opinions on the inheritance tax thing so you kind of misrepresent me when you say I agree with the farmers. We should remember though that no one likes paying tax but schools/hospitals/dustbins dont pay for themselves. We obviously agree on some things and not on others, we also possibly live in a different world. You think the budget will prove to be rubbish and Brexit will eventually turn out to be great(when and how?) i suppose time will tell us whos right.

I agree that the things you mentioned above will need paying for, unfortunately I don?t think the Chancellors budget will raise the money she thought. I think that we all should pay for things through personal taxation as well as fair and appropriate business taxation. The budget wasn?t fair and appropriate and is already costing jobs (as I know from personal experience) will lead to businesses closing and possibly going into recession. If that is the case will you agree that the result of the budget wasn?t what you expected?

You exaggerate I don?t say that Brexit would be great I said I thought it would be a good thing as I believe the bloated EU will end up a failed project.

As you say time will tell.