O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[SmiffyPie]

No, we do what Starmer is now doing, meeting European leaders and stating the case for the UK and how we can best work together as opposed to the adversarial stance of the last government.

Yep.

[Mapperleypie]

You are correct the Tories called for the vote but as a balance there were a large amount of Labour voters who voted leave and Corbyn did one of the best fence sitting displays we have ever seen when maybe offering a lead (as perhaps a leader should) woulod have been better.
P.S. Don't think for a second I believe that Cameron did any better.

I agree, Corbyn was a disaster during the Brexit referendum, the Labour for Brexit schtick was completely wrong-headed.

The vote should never have been a thing, it was divisive for us all and ultimately a complete waste of government time.

We are where we are now and Starmer, for all his failings, it trying to be the adult in the room with a truly awful hand at the EU negotiating table.

[Med Pie]

I agree, Corbyn was a disaster during the Brexit referendum, the Labour for Brexit schtick was completely wrong-headed.

The vote should never have been a thing, it was divisive for us all and ultimately a complete waste of government time.

We are where we are now and Starmer, for all his failings, it trying to be the adult in the room with a truly awful hand at the EU negotiating table.

I thought Corbyn had promised a complete U-turn on Brexit if they got in, said by many to be one of the reasons they were routed?

The biggest problem from Brexit is that we never negotiated a similar deal to the Dublin agreement which would have seen us able to send the boat people back to France but history shows us that the French will do anything to screw the British.

One of our biggest areas of leverage which a Trump like figure would instantly leap upon is fishing licences,. Our waters are among the richest in the World and he'd have sent (what little remains) the Navy to police the waters and protect our trawlers and not least the fish stocks. Successive governments have been weak and ineffective negotiators and Starmer should be very careful as to what he agrees to in Europe. If he has any chance remaining of a second term, agreements which could be perceived as back sliding on Brexit, will end him for sure.

[Old_pie]

The referendum was called by the Tories and the negotiations were all done by the last government. This is their Brexit, red-lines, sunlit-uplands, ruffled hair and all. A complete waste of government time and money to make the UK worse off, sold to the public on a pack of lies.

If Labour do want to fix any of this then they would need closer trading ties with Europe given they are our largest export market by far but the usual suspects will simply cry foul. As it is we have gone from being round the table in trading negotiations to simply a rule-taker. A national embarrassment.

We were at constant loggerheads and not aligned with the majority of Europe ever since Maastrich (on which the public did NOT have a vote). The Tories got in because they promised a referendum. It should have been no great surprise then that the referendum voted out. I voted out but I have to say I was unhappy with the haphazard and divisive way it was done, but then I'm unhappy with many of the things that Broken Britain does. We seem to have lost the art of honest and capable leaders.

Nations have always traded throughout history. Even bitter enemies after a war soon resume trading. But of course we lost the art of negotiating trade deals when we let the faceless autocrats of Europe in their ivory towers do it all for us.

Being run from Brussels was a national embarrassment. The fact that we needed to be run from Brussels is a bigger national embarrassment. If Starmer can't get his act together the national embarrassment will continue. But we've been going down the pan from the times of "we have never had it so good", and probably since the turn of the last century (God Bless Victoria).

[magpie_mania]

I thought Corbyn had promised a complete U-turn on Brexit if they got in, said by many to be one of the reasons they were routed?

The biggest problem from Brexit is that we never negotiated a similar deal to the Dublin agreement which would have seen us able to send the boat people back to France but history shows us that the French will do anything to screw the British.

One of our biggest areas of leverage which a Trump like figure would instantly leap upon is fishing licences,. Our waters are among the richest in the World and he'd have sent (what little remains) the Navy to police the waters and protect our trawlers and not least the fish stocks. Successive governments have been weak and ineffective negotiators and Starmer should be very careful as to what he agrees to in Europe. If he has any chance remaining of a second term, agreements which could be perceived as back sliding on Brexit, will end him for sure.

'agreements which could be perceived as back sliding on Brexit, will end him for sure.'

The problem as I see it is that as soon as there is any communication with the EU, the hardened brexiteers have the loudest voices and cry foul. They then claim that it is just a back-door into the EU again.

We have already shot ourselves in the foot imo by leaving - and while I understand and accept that, I can't understand why some are so opposed to us making the most of where we are now.

[OP67]

I thought Corbyn had promised a complete U-turn on Brexit if they got in, said by many to be one of the reasons they were routed?

Corbyn was a massive Eurosceptic which was why he sat on the fence and lost an election as he couldn't be strong enough to say what he believed.

Cameron didn't want to leave the EU and did everything to keep us in. He had to have the referendum as it was in their election manifesto. He even resigned straight after the vote as he'd failed to keep us in the EU.

[i961pie]

Corbyn was a massive Eurosceptic which was why he sat on the fence and lost an election as he couldn't be strong enough to say what he believed.

Cameron didn't want to leave the EU and did everything to keep us in. He had to have the referendum as it was in their election manifesto. He even resigned straight after the vote as he'd failed to keep us in the EU.

Manifesto promises usually mean nothing, not many are ever kept. But I agree Corbyn has spent his entire political life against EU membership.

[Med Pie]

Meanwhile, in another, astonishing attack on our privacy laws, it seem that our American cousins will fight this one on our behalf.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yvn90pl5no

'It is understood that the UK government does not want to start combing through everybody's data.

Rather it would want to access it if there were a risk to national security - in other words, it would be targeting an individual, rather than using it for mass surveillance.'

Yeah, right oh, like misusing anti terror laws to stop people at UK borders who are clearly not, terrorists, laughable.

[OP67]

Manifesto promises usually mean nothing

Oh yes and don't we know that with the current government At least Cameron stuck to his manifesto

[SwalePie]

I must say that it's very heartening to see everyone on this thread robustly but politely sharing their opinions while listening carefully to those of the other posters and considering them deeply, before offering appropriate counter opinions. It's so satisfying to witness so many on this thread actually switching their views and changing their political stance after such polite persuasion and open-minded debate.

Well done everyone. Keep up the good work.

[Elite_Pie]

At least Cameron stuck to his manifesto.

As a leader I much prefer Matty Platt.

Oops sorry, wrong thread.

[Elite_Pie]

It's so satisfying to witness so many on this thread actually switching their views and changing their political stance after such polite persuasion and open-minded debate.

I agree it's good to see open debate done in a fairly respectful way, but I'm not sure "so many on this thread actually switching their views and changing their political stance". I think it's more about people not fully understanding or misinterpreting what their political stance actually is. Sometimes a single post seems to lead some to think that has to make you far left or far right. We are probably all closer to the centre than it appears.

[SwalePie]

I agree it's good to see open debate done in a fairly respectful way, but I'm not sure "so many on this thread actually switching their views and changing their political stance". I think it's more about people not fully understanding or misinterpreting what their political stance actually is. Sometimes a single post seems to lead some to think that has to make you far left or far right. We are probably all closer to the centre than it appears.

Let's hope so.

[Med Pie]

I must say that it's very heartening to see everyone on this thread robustly but politely sharing their opinions while listening carefully to those of the other posters and considering them deeply, before offering appropriate counter opinions. It's so satisfying to witness so many on this thread actually switching their views and changing their political stance after such polite persuasion and open-minded debate.

Well done everyone. Keep up the good work.

It's also nice to see that some people have learned to reply without the use of sarcasm, some, but not all, must try harder.

[Med Pie]

Oh yes and don't we know that with the current government At least Cameron stuck to his manifesto

I'll bet he wishes he'd reneged, that is pretty much the only thing that he's remembered for by most.