O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

[Old_pie]

Do you seriously think we in Europe should be worried what Putin might do if we lose (get rid) of the American troops that Trump wants us to pay even more for? Russia can't even cope in Ukraine and the USA were the losers against Vietnam and Afghanistan, a great loss they would be.

Is Europe really so weak that we can't strike the mineral deal that is being proposed and put troops in to protect commercial interest whilst saying "bye bye America"?

[andy6025]

Is Europe really so weak that we can't strike the mineral deal that is being proposed and put troops in to protect commercial interest whilst saying "bye bye America"?

In short, yes.

[andy6025]

Do you seriously think we in Europe should be worried what Putin might do if we lose (get rid) of the American troops that Trump wants us to pay even more for? Russia can't even cope in Ukraine and the USA were the losers against Vietnam and Afghanistan, a great loss they would be.

Do you seriously think we in Europe should be worried what Putin might do if we lose (get rid) of the American troops that Trump wants us to pay even more for? Russia can't even cope in Ukraine and the USA were the losers against Vietnam and Afghanistan, a great loss they would be.

No, I personally don?t think you should be worried at all. Europe would be a massive liability and bottomless money pit for Putin. He doesn?t want to have to pay your pensions. And I think he knows that.

But don?t forget that according to western politicians and the msm Putin?s Russia is simultaneously on the brink of swallowing up all of Europe (or at least the former Soviet Union) while so weak that Ukraine is winning. Still according to this narrative, despite the plucky Ukrainians, the good of the world (or Europe at least) is all actually dependent on America?s loving protection.

[andy6025]

"The yanks blew up the pipeline" is a Kremlin narrative Andy, for which they (and you) have provided zero evidence.

Oh right. I forget that it was a plucky band of Ukrainians that rented a yacht and swam down there with some sticky sock bombs like they used in Saving Private Ryan and blew big holes in 1.5? thick steel encased in 4 inches of concrete? underwater. Of course they did, my bad.

[Jampie]

Oh right. I forget that it was a plucky band of Ukrainians that rented a yacht and swam down there with some sticky sock bombs like they used in Saving Private Ryan and blew big holes in 1.5? thick steel encased in 4 inches of concrete? underwater. Of course they did, my bad.

Where did I even suggest it was a Ukrainian operation?

Who benefited from the pipeline's destruction? It was shut down.

[andy6025]

Where did I even suggest it was a Ukrainian operation?

Who benefited from the pipeline's destruction? It was shut down.

America benefited.

[SmiffyPie]

Is Europe really so weak that we can't strike the mineral deal that is being proposed and put troops in to protect commercial interest whilst saying "bye bye America"?

When it comes down to boots on the ground yes it is. Poland have already said they wouldn't in case it annoyed Vlad.

[jackal2]

Europe has no cards to threaten Trump with anything.

I think that's pretty true regarding Trump and America. All American Presidents have levers available to them to pull that no other country (perhaps bar China) has, but it's unusual for their Presidents to pull so many of those levers so soon, if at all.

I think Trump's public statements about the Ukraine conflict are pretty much his unfiltered view: a "ridiculous" waste of money, time and lives (probably in that order) and a very tedious barrier to getting on with business. He said from the outset he wants to stop spending American resources on it and that he wants Europe to pay its way because he sees it as their problem. Now he's expanded that objective to include potentially making a profit out of the situation.

Trump will look at the situation and see two players, Russia and Ukraine/Europe, in a weak position. Both are desperate to be seen not to back down and lose face and territory, but in reality they are also desperate for a way out of this attritional mess. Russia know that they could probably win control of more of Ukraine if they fight on, but only at great cost, while Ukraine know that despite showing great courage they would ultimately 'lose' the war without American backing or massively increased European support.

Trump, by appearing to take not just a neutral but an ostensibly pro-Russian stance has given Europe and Ukraine a glimpse of potential apocalypse, sufficient to force Europe/UK to increase its defence spending and Ukraine to agree to a minerals deal with Trump that nobody had even raised or considered previously. Concurrently there's growing signs of a truce being reached, with the likely outcome that both warring sides will probably 'stick' with what territory they have won or defended so far.

If that happens, Trump goes back to the American public and says promise delivered: I stopped the war, and I didn't just save money, I've actually made money for us on the deal. There was a winner after all: America.

I also credit the Russians with enough nous to know that although Trump is currently posturing to be on their side, any attempt to further threaten Ukrainian sovereignty (or any other European country) would be seen to undermine and embarrass the great negotiator Trump's achievement, and he could turn on Russia just as quickly as he sided with them, with very unpredictable consequences, because in Trump's eyes you're only as good as what you've done for him lately.

Trump has proven by meeting the likes of Kim Jong Un that he'll break protocol and meet anyone if he thinks there's something in it for him, but by the same token if you've not got something to offer him, or worse still if you're publicly criticising him, then you very quickly become an irrelevance or a "bad person".

In the film Porridge, one of the inmates asks Fletcher (Ronnie Barker) whose side he is on, meaning the prisoners or the screws, to which Fletch replies "Neither. Mine!". I think if you asked Donald Trump the same question he would give the same answer.

[Jampie]

America benefited.

How? What did America get out of destroying a pipeline that was shut down?

[SmiffyPie]

Trump is a detestable person.

[Mapperleypie]

Trump is a detestable person.

Vance is no better.

The more I see the more certain I am that Putin has some proper awful stuff on Trump.

[KCNotts]

Vance is no better.

The more I see the more certain I am that Putin has some proper awful stuff on Trump.

Anybody seen the Oval Office live meeting with Zelensky just now?

Absolutely incredible. Trump and Vance are despicable people and the USA should be thoroughly ashamed.

[Jampie]

it's gonna be a looong four years. Just hope that's all it is

[irishpete]

Trumpxs a fcuking nut job, fruit cake who will cause WW3. He will be taken out by someone before the years out

[KCNotts]

it's gonna be a looong four years. Just hope that's all it is

I'm not so sure it will be. The state of World politics is absolutely depressing, i can totally see Musk taking over from Trump. The emergence of selfish oligarchs seizing power makes me feel quite ill. If only Bernie Sanders had got in instead of Biden.

Time to boycott American products and pray that Europe finds it's testicles.