O/T Covid Vaccine mRNA

[frogmiller]

Exactly, some things are dead ends but in medical science most abandonments are down to research funding drying up.

I appreciate that Grist. It’s just baffling how after so many times being that it wasn’t given extra funding over the years because it can’t have been working that it was given clearance to be an emergency drug. It was allowed to be pumped into so many people without the normal safety tests and without knowing of the dangers.

[Eternal Optimist]

I don't think there would be much point. I suspect that his mind is as closed as yours and that he has grown to like having a little band of followers hanging on to his every pronouncement.

Some lawyers are overrated. Trust me on this.

I'm loving the irony. Keep it coming.

[KerrAvon]

You did!!!!!!!

You also applauded the way they changed the way the government counts the death rate after saying that the old system was outdated.

In New Zealand they jailed the guy who blew the whistle!

Earlier in this thread you said that I had accused Andrew Bridgen of antisemitism. I asked you to point out where I had done that and got the inevitable silence. You have now claimed that I have said that there are no excess deaths in the UK (with multiple exclamation marks).

Ler’s see if we can avoid your bluster/silence this time by making it a little spicier. If you can show where I have claimed that there are no excess deaths on the UK I will stop posting on this thread and pay £50 to Rotherham hospice. If you can’t, an apology would be nice, but I won’t hold my breath.

If you mean that a person in New Zealand stole a large quantity of people’s private medical records and publicised them then you are right. If anyone put my medical records onto the internet, I would hope they would be imprisoned. That doesn’t alter the fact that New Zealand is the country that antivaxxers don't like to talk about (unless they're talking bollox) because around 95% of its population received COVID vaccines in 2021, which was a year in which the country showed negative excess deaths.

[KerrAvon]

Wow!

You can’t resist denouncing a professional can you. He’s brave enough to point his finger and stand up for what he believes.

He has put himself up for election, so did I and I was elected but you never answered my question. Have you ever stood for election and if so were you trusted enough to be elected ?

If not tell me, were you the school head boy or a prefect?

Are we not allowed to ‘denounce’ professionals now? Take a look back at the stuff that you have posted about Anthony Fauci on this thread. What where you doing then (that’s a rhetorical question – I know that you were simply regurgitating bolox that you found on Twitter).


This is the judgement in the case that Kennedy’s website wittered on about:

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-9th-circuit/116248612.html

I appreciate that you aren’t a lawyer (or at least, I don’t think you are), but see if you can find anything in it that supports the claim on Kennedy's site that the court found that the covid vaccines prevented transmission.

[KerrAvon]

I appreciate that Grist. It’s just baffling how after so many times being that it wasn’t given extra funding over the years because it can’t have been working that it was given clearance to be an emergency drug. It was allowed to be pumped into so many people without the normal safety tests and without knowing of the dangers.

It's not baffling at all.

Here’s an article concerning the history of mRNA vaccine research:

https://ifp.org/progress-deferred-lessons-from-mrna-vaccine-development/

The bottom line is that mRNA is difficult and expensive to work with, there is very little money to be made on vaccines and most of the research prior to covid was in respect of trying to produce an HIV vaccine, which has proved to be incredibly difficult with traditional technology. Vast amounts of money was then thrown at covid and that funding allowed the technology to be developed.

[frogmiller]

Are we not allowed to ‘denounce’ professionals now? Take a look back at the stuff that you have posted about Anthony Fauci on this thread. What where you doing then (that’s a rhetorical question – I know that you were simply regurgitating bolox that you found on Twitter).


This is the judgement in the case that Kennedy’s website wittered on about:

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-9th-circuit/116248612.html

I appreciate that you aren’t a lawyer (or at least, I don’t think you are), but see if you can find anything in it that supports the claim on Kennedy's site that the court found that the covid vaccines prevented transmission.

You do it to win arguments! You denounce anyone that does not agree with your narritive.

It's the same with polititions throught the world. Denounce then follow the narritive!

I'm certainly not a lawyer!

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00768-4/fulltext

Vaccine effectiveness studies have conclusively demonstrated the benefit of COVID-19 vaccines in reducing individual symptomatic and severe disease, resulting in reduced hospitalisations and intensive care unit admissions.1
However, the impact of vaccination on transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 needs to be elucidated. A prospective cohort study in the UK by Anika Singanayagam and colleagues2
regarding community transmission of SARS-CoV-2 among unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals provides important information that needs to be considered in reassessing vaccination policies. This study showed that the impact of vaccination on community transmission of circulating variants of SARS-CoV-2 appeared to be not significantly different from the impact among unvaccinated people.2
, 3
The scientific rationale for mandatory vaccination in the USA relies on the premise that vaccination prevents transmission to others, resulting in a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”.4
Yet, the demonstration of COVID-19 breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated health-care workers (HCW) in Israel, who in turn may transmit this infection to their patients,5
requires a reassessment of compulsory vaccination policies leading to the job dismissal of unvaccinated HCW in the USA. Indeed, there is growing evidence that peak viral titres in the upper airways of the lungs and culturable virus are similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.2,3,5–7 A recent investigation by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of an outbreak of COVID-19 in a prison in Texas showed the equal presence of infectious virus in the nasopharynx of vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.6
Similarly, researchers in California observed no major differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in terms of SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in the nasopharynx, even in those with proven asymptomatic infection.7
Thus, the current evidence suggests that current mandatory vaccination policies might need to be reconsidered, and that vaccination status should not replace mitigation practices such as mask wearing, physical distancing, and contact-tracing investigations, even within highly vaccinated populations.
I declare no competing interests.

[frogmiller]

It's not baffling at all.

Here’s an article concerning the history of mRNA vaccine research:

https://ifp.org/progress-deferred-lessons-from-mrna-vaccine-development/

The bottom line is that mRNA is difficult and expensive to work with, there is very little money to be made on vaccines and most of the research prior to covid was in respect of trying to produce an HIV vaccine, which has proved to be incredibly difficult with traditional technology. Vast amounts of money was then thrown at covid and that funding allowed the technology to be developed.

As you bring up AIDS here is something that you may or may not know.

https://x.com/JoshWalkos/status/1802517740105674771 You could earn some money!

[Eternal Optimist]

...New Zealand is the country that antivaxxers don't like to talk about (unless they're talking bollox) because around 95% of its population received COVID vaccines in 2021, which was a year in which the country showed negative excess deaths.

Any idea what happened with excess deaths in NZ in 2022 and 2023?

[Eternal Optimist]

...https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...768-4/fulltext...

Tricky one here - he swears by The Lancet.

Unless it's Pfake news...

[KerrAvon]

You do it to win arguments! You denounce anyone that does not agree with your narritive.

It's the same with polititions throught the world. Denounce then follow the narritive!

I'm certainly not a lawyer!

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00768-4/fulltext

Vaccine effectiveness studies have conclusively demonstrated the benefit of COVID-19 vaccines in reducing individual symptomatic and severe disease, resulting in reduced hospitalisations and intensive care unit admissions.1
However, the impact of vaccination on transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 needs to be elucidated. A prospective cohort study in the UK by Anika Singanayagam and colleagues2
regarding community transmission of SARS-CoV-2 among unvaccinated and vaccinated individuals provides important information that needs to be considered in reassessing vaccination policies. This study showed that the impact of vaccination on community transmission of circulating variants of SARS-CoV-2 appeared to be not significantly different from the impact among unvaccinated people.2
, 3
The scientific rationale for mandatory vaccination in the USA relies on the premise that vaccination prevents transmission to others, resulting in a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”.4
Yet, the demonstration of COVID-19 breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated health-care workers (HCW) in Israel, who in turn may transmit this infection to their patients,5
requires a reassessment of compulsory vaccination policies leading to the job dismissal of unvaccinated HCW in the USA. Indeed, there is growing evidence that peak viral titres in the upper airways of the lungs and culturable virus are similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.2,3,5–7 A recent investigation by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of an outbreak of COVID-19 in a prison in Texas showed the equal presence of infectious virus in the nasopharynx of vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.6
Similarly, researchers in California observed no major differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in terms of SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in the nasopharynx, even in those with proven asymptomatic infection.7
Thus, the current evidence suggests that current mandatory vaccination policies might need to be reconsidered, and that vaccination status should not replace mitigation practices such as mask wearing, physical distancing, and contact-tracing investigations, even within highly vaccinated populations.
I declare no competing interests.

If I disagree with a view expressed by someone or consider them to be unreliable for another reason, I will say so if I’m engaged in a discussion. Isn't that part of the point of a message board? If you wish to interpret that as me seeking to win an argument, so be it. Isn't that what you are doing with your endless Twitter links?

The pandemic and the use of the covid vaccines was unprecedented for obvious reasons and the science scrabbled to keep up. It is inevitable that there would be differing views as that science developed. In a quick search, I’ve turned up:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10073587/

While we observed VOC-specific immune-escape, especially by Omicron, and waning over time since immunization, vaccination remained associated with a reduced risk of SARS-CoV-2-transmission.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02138-x

Analyzing SARS-CoV-2 surveillance data from December 2021 to May 2022 across 35 California state prisons with a predominately male population, we estimate that unvaccinated Omicron cases had a 36% (95% confidence interval (CI): 31–42%) risk of transmitting infection to close contacts, as compared to a 28% (25–31%) risk among vaccinated cases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8451182/

We provide empirical evidence suggesting that vaccination may reduce transmission by showing that vaccination of health care workers is associated with a decrease in documented cases of Covid-19 among members of their households.

[KerrAvon]

Any idea what happened with excess deaths in NZ in 2022 and 2023?

Yes.

New Zealand was able to almost completely prevent the widespread circulation of covid in 2020 and 2021 by the use of closed borders and internal restrictions. It experienced negative excess deaths in both years (including during the mass vaccination campaign conducted in 2021). In February 2022 the country began to lift border restrictions and there were covid outbreaks. Unsurprisingly, they coincided with a level of excess deaths in 2022 and 2023.

The ten countries with the lowest excess deaths by % (New Zealand, Denmark, Australia, Norway, Canada, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Germany and Malta) are also ten of the most highly vaccinated. By way of contrast, the 10 countries with the highest excess deaths (North-Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Lithuania, Serbia, Montenegro, Slovakia, Kosovo and Moldova) have much lower vaccination rates.

Go figure.

[KerrAvon]

Tricky one here - he swears by The Lancet.

Unless it's Pfake news...

Isn't a bit tricky for you? You have previously dismissed the Lancet because Vanguard holds shares in its publisher’s parent company or some such ridiculous reason. Are you suddenly a fan when you discover that they have said something that you want to believe?

Did you take a look at the judgement in the LA case. Doesn’t it bother you that the write up on RFK’s website (he’s a lawyer don’t you know!) bears only a passing resemblance to the reality of the situation?

[Eternal Optimist]

Isn't a bit tricky for you? You have previously dismissed the Lancet because Vanguard holds shares in its publisher’s parent company or some such ridiculous reason. Are you suddenly a fan when you discover that they have said something that you want to believe?...

As I said, tricky one here. Do you believe this particular article?

...Doesn’t it bother you that the write up on RFK’s website (he’s a lawyer don’t you know!) bears only a passing resemblance to the reality of the situation?

If you think your opinion outweighs that of RFK Jr., that's your problem.

[Eternal Optimist]

...Go figure...

Funnily enough, since 1955 the highest ever increase in excess deaths was 4.9%. You seem quite content that in 2022 this increased to 10%.

Here's the actual situation.

https://www.excessdeathstats.com/nz/

[Eternal Optimist]

...You have previously dismissed the Lancet because Vanguard holds shares in its publisher’s parent company or some such ridiculous reason...

It's Blackrock - the people who are gleefully supplying weapons to anyone with the money to pay.

Supporting businesses that profit from death and destruction is definitely NOT what I do. The fact that you're happy to ignore these vile actions speaks volumes about the depth of your compassion.