O/T Is Elon Musk more powerful than Trump?

[howdydoo]

Believe it or not, I'm in agreement with you.

I have no intention of belittling anyone, and I'm sorry you interpreted my post that way.

I was replying to John2.

[John2]

Didn?t you say that it was like a high school debating society talking to us on here the other day?

Quite possibly, and that is a good example as I'm sure we'd agree you can get very intelligent children but that their limited world experience of a subject will impact their ability to constructed a nuanced, well-reasoned argument. Though I'm not saying that's the case here.

Do you think that the heavy gases from the natural gas taken from the ground in Russia is being used to make the LPG? Or do you think that it is being made just from the crude oil? I honestly don?t know myself.

I gave the figures for gas overall. The fact you still think LPG is relevant in the context of the original claim and misunderstanding you made is just daftness continued.

Let us say half of what I say is correct but 100% of what you say is correct yet we don?t agree on anything at all then who is wrong?

This is just such an absurd thing to say. It doesn't even logically make sense, it's just a word salad.

You do make a valid point about how, since gas is a commodity, it could be "washed" to some extent before making its way back to sanctioning markets. However, again, this is a very shallow understanding/misunderstanding of the intention of sanctions against Russia. Sanctions have never been intended to completely stop Russian energy exports as this would create a huge global shock and way worse inflation - instead we have seen carefully managed sanctions packages to reduce Russia's ability to profit from its energy production.

I must admit, I hadn't seen howdys reply after I pointed out his article referenced liquid gas, and I do owe him an apology as without him providing context it looked like he was supporting your position.

[John2]

Nobody wants to be belittled. But not everyone relentlessly consumes misinformation and then blindly shares it without even basic fact checking.

Poor old frog finds himself regularly sharing Russian misinformation and he doesn't even get paid for it, bless him! They find people like him very useful.

[kempo]

Has France surrendered yet?
Anyone know which side Italy is on?..[For now!]

[ragingpup]

I know it is.

I'm guessing it's the source for Frogs comment.

Everyone is frothing at the mouth and calling each other out before any of this is played out.

Three years and no progress was being made in this horrible war. All trying to score points while 100's of thousands of young soldiers are sent to slaughter.

We've yet to hear what Putin will put on the table to end it. It might be unpalatable.

I find it strange that so many people oppose capital punishment in this country but can sit behind their keyboard and continue to support a war, in which Ukraine can't win. With or without Europe's help.

Stop the killing ASAP and negotiate a settlement.

WE do know what Putin has already put on the table - there have been several rounds of talks in the last 3 years and Putin has made it clear he wants:

1. To keep all of the land it has occupied since 2014
2. To also keep the territories of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia, which are part of Ukraine
3. That Ukraine ends their application for NATO and agrees never to join.

In the 1991 Ukrain referendum of independence, the population of each of these 4 desired territories voted overwhelmingly to be independent Ukranian civilians, not Russian: Donetsk (84%), Kherson (90%), Luhansk (84%) and Zaporizhzhia (91%).

The crux for me, and probably fundamental for anyone interested in protecting an invaded sovereign nation that has self determined, how does it's own government, and us, stand by and let these people have their reoccupation by another country become a reality? What woud we do it we were proud Ukrainian civilians, and we were to become subject to another country, and particularly one where I am likely to have a long history of bad feeling?

I appreciate that people discussing polemics might feel like point scoring for you, when people are being killed in real life. But there are very real principles at stake in this situation within our continent and both sides are making very valid points for and against. We can only hope that any poltiical leaders can find some common ground here and find a way to stop the fighting. Independently run referendums in these territories, administrated by other countries which both Russia and Ukraine can agree to and abide by the outcome would seem a good idea on the territories front.

Really hope Trump can make some inroads - what they seem to be proposing sounds dodgy on the surface - something like "we will keep Russia from fighting you if we can have access to your mineral land" type of thing. Hopefully it will lead somewhere positive

[frogmiller]

Has France surrendered yet?
Anyone know which side Italy is on?..[For now!]

Not yet Kempo! Still negotiating the retreat

[frogmiller]

Nobody wants to be belittled. But not everyone relentlessly consumes misinformation and then blindly shares it without even basic fact checking.

Poor old frog finds himself regularly sharing Russian misinformation and he doesn't even get paid for it, bless him! They find people like him very useful.

Poor old Frog

And no one wants belittling

Coming soon from a bedroom in Whiston some more insults!

[John2]

Poor old Frog

And no one wants belittling

Coming soon from a bedroom in Whiston some more insults!

OK, I apologise, shall we try and have meaningful discussion instead of this avoidant back and forth? Once we establish the foundational premises we can progress.

"Europe buys more gas now from russia than it did before the war."

Do you acknowledge this is incorrect and based on a misunderstanding of an article you read about only liquified gas?

[animallittle3]

WE do know what Putin has already put on the table - there have been several rounds of talks in the last 3 years and Putin has made it clear he wants:

1. To keep all of the land it has occupied since 2014
2. To also keep the territories of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia, which are part of Ukraine
3. That Ukraine ends their application for NATO and agrees never to join.

In the 1991 Ukrain referendum of independence, the population of each of these 4 desired territories voted overwhelmingly to be independent Ukranian civilians, not Russian: Donetsk (84%), Kherson (90%), Luhansk (84%) and Zaporizhzhia (91%).

The crux for me, and probably fundamental for anyone interested in protecting an invaded sovereign nation that has self determined, how does it's own government, and us, stand by and let these people have their reoccupation by another country become a reality? What woud we do it we were proud Ukrainian civilians, and we were to become subject to another country, and particularly one where I am likely to have a long history of bad feeling?

I appreciate that people discussing polemics might feel like point scoring for you, when people are being killed in real life. But there are very real principles at stake in this situation within our continent and both sides are making very valid points for and against. We can only hope that any poltiical leaders can find some common ground here and find a way to stop the fighting. Independently run referendums in these territories, administrated by other countries which both Russia and Ukraine can agree to and abide by the outcome would seem a good idea on the territories front.

Really hope Trump can make some inroads - what they seem to be proposing sounds dodgy on the surface - something like "we will keep Russia from fighting you if we can have access to your mineral land" type of thing. Hopefully it will lead somewhere positive

Well Putin is also going to have to compromise too on his wishlist and this where the US can come in and help both sides come to an agreement .

It's not going to be perfect , it never is with these things but the fact that Zelenskyy is slowly starting to come round to the idea of an agreement is at least a start .

I didn't much care for IRA members getting released from prison after they blew up hundreds of innocent civilians for 30 years and I'm pretty certain not seeing a United Ireland didn't please them too much either .

However these " Forever Wars " are senseless so it has to be done .

[frogmiller]

https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/1052855.html

Italiens won?t be sending troops to Ukraine.

Looks like it?s only the British and the French but Macron says he has no mandate up to now.

If there is a mineral deal to be had then who will keep the workers getting the minerals safe?

If this war continues then they can?t get th? minerals

[frogmiller]

It looks like the war mongerers will get their way!

Ursula von der Leyen the once failed German defence minister and now unelected leader of the EU commission is looking delighted with her dayand Zelensky too!

ReArm Europe is a strategic defense initiative proposed by European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on March 4, 2025, aimed at enhancing the European Union's military capabilities. It was unveiled in a letter to European leaders ahead of a European Council meeting on March 6, 2025. The plan seeks to mobilize up to €800 billion to strengthen Europe's defense infrastructure in response to geopolitical threats, notably the ongoing war in Ukraine and uncertainties over U.S. military support.

https://defence-industry.eu/rearm-europe-plan-ursula-von-der-leyen-unveils-major-eu-defence-spending-initiative/

[KerrAvon]

I've tried so hard to keep my mouth shut on this subject, but I can only read so much crap.

Warmongering?

The warmonger here is Putin. He invaded a neighbouring sovereign state on two occasions and is now expending waves of Russian and North Korean men to try to subjugate it.

We are entering a new age of imperialism in which Russia, China and now, it seems, the US will seek to carve up the world for their own benefit.

And before you repeat any written in Moscow social media propaganda about NATO, maybe you should reflect on the 80 or so years of peace that organisation has brought to Western Europe and that maybe Eastern European countries wouldn't have been so keen to join if Russia had proved to be a good neighbour.

[ragingpup]

I'm wondering why the newly (and ****ing mysteriously!) formed anti war pacifists didn't get behind Jezza Corbyn when he tried to become leader?

[frogmiller]

[frogmiller]

I'm wondering why the newly (and ****ing mysteriously!) formed anti war pacifists didn't get behind Jezza Corbyn when he tried to become leader?

If you are refering to me the I can say that I didn't like Corbyn and wouldn't trust him.

If you think also that I am new to anti war then you are wrong.

My point always on this thread is the chance for ending this war. IOt was clear it was not going to be posible under Biden. Trump on the other hand there was a chance but it seem now that chance is fading.

As Kerr says in his post. "We are entering a new age of imperialism in which Russia, China and now, it seems, the US will seek to carve up the world for their own benefit."

Maybe he is right but then again it could be a conspiricy theory.