O/T Trump sells out Ukraine

[baggieal]

The stark reality for many dumb ass Americans nowadays is that they voted for a communist loving dick. Republicans need to understand but don't. An important week globally for Democracy.

Putin plays Trump again.
Not even the Russians really expect anyone other than their man in the Whitehouse to accept the plan but Trump may cease any desperately needed American weapons shipments or intelligence transfer and that will be a massive win for Putin nevertheless.

Europe has had a Year now to prepare this scenario, but have they taken action? and are they willing to step up.
All that remaining military hardware in Europe needs to be sent to Ukraine now as that rainy day is here now!

Watching those poor defenceless grannies, women and kids being dug out of demolished tower blocks make me so angry.
Where are the real statesman, the leaders of the free world?
All I see is an apathetic selfish society across most the world and honestly, I despair at times.
If I were younger or in better health I would even volunteer in some way. I do support some of the charitable organisations out there and I suggest you guys do the same if you can, there are many of them and don?t say they are all corrupt as an excuse.

Totally agree with you! Trump is a disgusting individual for doing this. Shame on him!

The NATO allies need to grow a pair now and use the billions in frozen assets in Brussels to take the battle to Putin!

They should also ignore Trumps pathetic peace plan as yesterdays chip paper

[On Balance]

Nine European countries, including the UK, as well as Japan, Canada and the European Union, publicly expressed their unease with the US plan.

It also is emerging that although Trump is saying the plan was drawn up by his officials and endorsed by him. There is concern that the plan was actually drawn up by Russia and proposed to the Trump administration. It has been suggested it was a document leaked by someone on the Russian side and that it appeared Russian in nature, including the way it had been written.

Republican senators say Secretary of State Marco Rubio told them it was not in fact an American proposal, but a Russian plan, leaked by the Russian side, and the Ukrainians would be able to respond to it and negotiate.

Looks like a right old mess Trump has got himself into. Truth will out in the end. It usually does.

[Leicesterbaggie]

Nine European countries, including the UK, as well as Japan, Canada and the European Union, publicly expressed their unease with the US plan.

It also is emerging that although Trump is saying the plan was drawn up by his officials and endorsed by him. There is concern that the plan was actually drawn up by Russia and proposed to the Trump administration. It has been suggested it was a document leaked by someone on the Russian side and that it appeared Russian in nature, including the way it had been written.

Republican senators say Secretary of State Marco Rubio told them it was not in fact an American proposal, but a Russian plan, leaked by the Russian side, and the Ukrainians would be able to respond to it and negotiate.

Looks like a right old mess Trump has got himself into. Truth will out in the end. It usually does.

Regretfully, with regards to Trump I am not so sure that your final two sentences are correct.

[baggieal]

The problem is the weak and gutless leaders like Starmer won?t criticise the plan. Starmer says there?s work to be done - how gutless can he be!

Trump has sold out Ukraine and disgusting he?s done this. The question is why?

[Omegstrat6]

The problem is the weak and gutless leaders like Starmer won?t criticise the plan. Starmer says there?s work to be done - how gutless can he be!

Trump has sold out Ukraine and disgusting he?s done this. The question is why?

Exactly the question posed at the start of this thread Al.

Over the course of his current tenure, it has become increasingly apparent that Trump is not only narcissistic but is also at heart a grifter who seems bereft of any moral compass. His primary concern seems to be seeking means to enrich himself and he tweets a constant stream of lies and exaggerations about his achievements to cover up the fact that, regardless of his Big Beautiful Tariffs or his success in dealing with illegal immigration, the vast majority of Americans can see no real improvements in their own lives. Indeed, many of the country's more vulnerable are now worse off. This realization is clearly now dawning on a growing number as his present approval ratings have dropped to 38%.

The question is whether it is this nature of America's Toddler-in-Chief that has led to him endorsing the 28 point plan -which is overwhelming in favour of Russia-or whether there is actually something in all the whispers and conspiracy theories and that Putin has some hold over him.

As for Starmer and other European leaders, as an editorial in the Independent pointed out, there are some senior figures who would like to tell Trump to just f u ck o ff but they believe that Europe alone is not powerful enough to have the leverage needed against Putin and no-one trusts the present POTUS to support them if the worst came to the worst. Given this, they have to indulge in a bit of realpolitik because they know that Trump both responds well to flattery and has consistently shown that he can change his mind much depending on who last has his ear. It's also very much like dealing with a toddler, ordinarily you ignore them but this means both parents agreeing to do the same. In this case, however, if the West ignores his tantrums then Putin only has to show him some attention and he will happily toddle towards him instead.

I guess the initial hope is that the West can dissuade Trump from sticking to his Thanksgiving deadline (and history has shown that Trump's deadlines are rarely that), flatter him that his plan is a good starting point for peace and then use this to alter aspects of the plan to try and create a more just solution. The very obvious problem is that this is little short of stalling and in the meantime Putin will continue to bomb Ukraine regardless of any further Russian losses simply because no-one is going to stop him. This last -as liquidator pointed out -is a rather damning indictment of our current Western leadership.

[baggieal]

Exactly the question posed at the start of this thread Al.

Over the course of his current tenure, it has become increasingly apparent that Trump is not only narcissistic but is also at heart a grifter who seems bereft of any moral compass. His primary concern seems to be seeking means to enrich himself and he tweets a constant stream of lies and exaggerations about his achievements to cover up the fact that, regardless of his Big Beautiful Tariffs or his success in dealing with illegal immigration, the vast majority of Americans can see no real improvements in their own lives. Indeed, many of the country's more vulnerable are now worse off. This realization is clearly now dawning on a growing number as his present approval ratings have dropped to 38%.

The question is whether it is this nature of America's Toddler-in-Chief that has led to him endorsing the 28 point plan -which is overwhelming in favour of Russia-or whether there is actually something in all the whispers and conspiracy theories and that Putin has some hold over him.

As for Starmer and other European leaders, as an editorial in the Independent pointed out, there are some senior figures who would like to tell Trump to just f u ck o ff but they believe that Europe alone is not powerful enough to have the leverage needed against Putin and no-one trusts the present POTUS to support them if the worst came to the worst. Given this, they have to indulge in a bit of realpolitik because they know that Trump both responds well to flattery and has consistently shown that he can change his mind much depending on who last has his ear. It's also very much like dealing with a toddler, ordinarily you ignore them but this means both parents agreeing to do the same. In this case, however, if the West ignores his tantrums then Putin only has to show him some attention and he will happily toddle towards him instead.

I guess the initial hope is that the West can dissuade Trump from sticking to his Thanksgiving deadline (and history has shown that Trump's deadlines are rarely that), flatter him that his plan is a good starting point for peace and then use this to alter aspects of the plan to try and create a more just solution. The very obvious problem is that this is little short of stalling and in the meantime Putin will continue to bomb Ukraine regardless of any further Russian losses simply because no-one is going to stop him. This last -as liquidator pointed out -is a rather damning indictment of our current Western leadership.

Good post as always Omeg and agree! Hope your well besides.

[Omegstrat6]

Good post as always Omeg and agree! Hope your well besides.

Yes, good thanks Al and hope you and yours are the same.

As regards the peace plan, I see that Rubio is echoing his boss and claiming "tremendous progress" on it whilst Trump swings from slagging off Zelensky for "giving zero thanks" for his help and then (in the face of criticisms ) stating that it "isn't his final offer".

Trump simply follows his normal negotiating route which is to offer something so unfavourable that he fully expects it to be rejected with the hope that the other party will be so grateful that he is prepared to reconsider, they will accept even minor concessions which are still very far from what they would actually like. This is his vaunted "Art of the Deal" -playground stuff 😁

The problem in this case is Putin who has already been testing the resolve of European NATO members through increasing incursions into their airspace and waters. Whatever Ukraine may agree to with Trump it is still very unlikely to be agreed to by Putin who will continue to stall, break cease-fires and try and grab as much more territory as he can in the meantime. Why? Because he can.

[On Balance]

Yes, good thanks Al and hope you and yours are the same.

As regards the peace plan, I see that Rubio is echoing his boss and claiming "tremendous progress" on it whilst Trump swings from slagging off Zelensky for "giving zero thanks" for his help and then (in the face of criticisms ) stating that it "isn't his final offer".

Trump simply follows his normal negotiating route which is to offer something so unfavourable that he fully expects it to be rejected with the hope that the other party will be so grateful that he is prepared to reconsider, they will accept even minor concessions which are still very far from what they would actually like. This is his vaunted "Art of the Deal" -playground stuff 😁

The problem in this case is Putin who has already been testing the resolve of European NATO members through increasing incursions into their airspace and waters. Whatever Ukraine may agree to with Trump it is still very unlikely to be agreed to by Putin who will continue to stall, break cease-fires and try and grab as much more territory as he can in the meantime. Why? Because he can.

All very true.

I read today that Russia are saying they have not had sight or been informed of the changes being made to the plan by the Geneva talks, and they (the Russians) are already suspicious that the changes will not be favourable to Russia. Indeed, as you say, it is most unlikely Russia will agree. They will continue with their merciless war and killing of innocents civilians to land grab what they can. Putin?s one plan is to turn back the pages of history. He cares little for the lives f Russians or others to achieve his want.

Today the Russian tabloid Mosovsky Komsomolets wrote: ?The European and Ukrainian gang will 'correct' Trump?s plan in such a way that it becomes completely unacceptable to Russia.? Even the wording (gang) shows contempt and unwillingness, it is simply towing the Government line.

Trumps one aim is to win a Nobel Peace Prize, which he has openly admitted. To get that he would happily send Ukraine down the drain. Trump is without any doubt as dangerous a president as Putin is. It is good the American people are finally waking up to how useless Trump is. It is a shame for America, Europe and the free world they did not see it earlier.

[On Balance]

All very true.

I read today that Russia are saying they have not had sight or been informed of the changes being made to the plan by the Geneva talks, and they (the Russians) are already suspicious that the changes will not be favourable to Russia. Indeed, as you say, it is most unlikely Russia will agree. They will continue with their merciless war and killing of innocents civilians to land grab what they can. Putin?s one plan is to turn back the pages of history. He cares little for the lives f Russians or others to achieve his want.

Today the Russian tabloid Mosovsky Komsomolets wrote: ?The European and Ukrainian gang will 'correct' Trump?s plan in such a way that it becomes completely unacceptable to Russia.? Even the wording (gang) shows contempt and unwillingness, it is simply towing the Government line.

Trumps one aim is to win a Nobel Peace Prize, which he has openly admitted. To get that he would happily send Ukraine down the drain. Trump is without any doubt as dangerous a president as Putin is. It is good the American people are finally waking up to how useless Trump is. It is a shame for America, Europe and the free world they did not see it earlier.

Trumps peace plan had Russian prints all over it and now we know why. Article from today from Sky News.

https://news.sky.com/story/trumps-peace-plan-had-russian-fingerprints-all-over-it-and-now-we-know-why-13475506