OT another terrorist attack.

[Ellis_D]

What do you mean by 'doing things our way'. If you are talking about the pre-stunning of animals that are to be slaughtered, that only became a legal requirement in 1933 and from the outset there were exemptions for Halal and Kosher slaughter. With that being the case, I'd argue that the only way that 'our way' comes into it is that the legislation reflects the the tradition of tolerance that this country thankfully has. In any event pre-stunning with non-invasive methods is increasingly accepted as Halal.

I would imagine that Halal food has been available in the UK for as long as there has been a market for it, just as Kosher has been available for the much smaller British Jewish community.

Subway franchisees have a choice as to whether to operate as a Halal outlet or not. One assumes that is their own preferences and an assessment of their likely market that determines their decision. If they go Halal, they put a sign in their window and, in my experience, have a compliance certificate on display. In making their choice, franchisees are not being dictated to or bending over, they are exercising a business choice.

I haven't said that people shouldn't care about Halal. I was making the point that they generally don't - unless it suits their view of the world to do so, that is. If a person in a hospital that uses Halal meat doesn't want to eat it, they could act like grown ups, ask for an alternative or take the vegetarian option. Ditto schools.

Sharia law is available in the UK for divorce and dispute resolution, just as Beth Din courts are available for Jews. Neither you nor anyone else has to use them, you have a choice.

The bottom line is that whilst you may feel that Subway franchisees choosing to operate in a Halal fashion is the start of a descent into civil war, I don't.

You seem to have very little faith in Western culture. Personally, I think that it is traditional Islamic culture that will fail to survive the encounter. Perhaps ironically, one of the gateways to radicalisation is the identity crisis that many young Muslims feel as they are pulled in two different directions.

I must laugh at your view that children in schools should act like adults and eat the vegetarian option rather than eat halal meat. Even adults in hospitals. You couldn't ask a school or hospital for a guarantee that the halal meat was slaughtered humanely, and even if they did you couldn't be certain they are telling the truth. So you have to eat meat that might not be slaughtered humanely, but it's alright because 95% of people could act like grown ups and take the vegetarian option to satisfy the 5% who get to eat their meat. Appeasement at its finest.

[ragingpup]

No, my problem is the exact same issue as yours. Strictly speaking, the meat is NOT halal if it is has been stunned before slaughter. So the fact that 90% of the meat sold as halal actually isn't fully halal shows that there ARE a considerable number of Muslims willing to compromise in a non-Muslim land.

This though means that we are allowing this barbaric slaughter to appease an even smaller percentage of people.

This has nothing to do with being vindictive and everything to do with us living in the 21st century and trying to be as humane as possible when killing animals for food. We should NOT be changing our ways to act so barbarically in order to appease a small percentage of people.

The kind of people who insist that animals are killed in this way are probably the same kind of extremists who follow the evil passages in the Qur'an.

I have no interest one way or another if people want to bless an animal before it is killed. I'm not going to choke on some Arabic words.

However, by the same token, if we are being sensitive to the feelings of Muslim when they need to have religious words spoken before slaughtering an animal, we should also be sensitive to Christians and other groups if they don't want that to happen.

My schools source from suppliers where animals are stunned. Yes you take it on trust, as you do with fairtrade and any other ethical supplier. Before I was vegan I bought eggs from an ethical farm supplier. How did I know that they were ethical and not buying battery eggs and putting them in their boxes? Always an element of trust and RSPCA do random inspections on anything that they certify. I'm guessing that you trust a range of products that have various claims - but strangely you aren't willing to trust meat suppliers of hal al food? What does that tell us about your attitude towards them?

If you are saying that you are angry at the other 10% of meat that is not stunned then I tend to agree with you - as far as I'm aware the practice is illegal (may be wrong) and if it isn't then it should be. I agree with you here. However, don't flatter yourself that the difference is that big - many debate whether stunning an animal actually reduces pain and whether it makes any difference to the animal at all. I think there is enough evidence for me to back outlawing it personally, but even I wouldn't say that not stunning is barbaric. I think the whole practice is barbaric but that's where I have to accept the consensus. But no high horse to climb on over hal al and kosher death for you I'm afraid.

I guess if you genuinely think, as many do in this strange recent outburst of thought/paranoia on the far right, that there is a conspiracy of take over of our land coming from the Muslim population, that it is part of a master plan of sorts to absorb 'our way of doing things' then this is probably a waste of words anyway. Life must be very stressful and angry for you and others who feel this.

[KerrAvon]

I must laugh at your view that children in schools should act like adults and eat the vegetarian option rather than eat halal meat. Even adults in hospitals. You couldn't ask a school or hospital for a guarantee that the halal meat was slaughtered humanely, and even if they did you couldn't be certain they are telling the truth. So you have to eat meat that might not be slaughtered humanely, but it's alright because 95% of people could act like grown ups and take the vegetarian option to satisfy the 5% who get to eat their meat. Appeasement at its finest.

The reality of the situation is that the child wouldn't make the choice - his or her parent would.

I see that your objection has switched from Halal per se to becoming one about humane slaughter. Is that part of a wider animal welfare agenda or is it the Islamic connection that does it for you?

As raging points out, the whole livestock industry has plenty of rough and inhumane edges and, if you can't accept that, vegetarianism is really your only option.

What you see as appeasement and the path to a civil war, I see as business decisions for the individuals, businesses and public bodies concerned.

[KerrAvon]

My schools source from suppliers where animals are stunned. Yes you take it on trust, as you do with fairtrade and any other ethical supplier. Before I was vegan I bought eggs from an ethical farm supplier. How did I know that they were ethical and not buying battery eggs and putting them in their boxes? Always an element of trust and RSPCA do random inspections on anything that they certify. I'm guessing that you trust a range of products that have various claims - but strangely you aren't willing to trust meat suppliers of hal al food? What does that tell us about your attitude towards them?

If you are saying that you are angry at the other 10% of meat that is not stunned then I tend to agree with you - as far as I'm aware the practice is illegal (may be wrong) and if it isn't then it should be. I agree with you here. However, don't flatter yourself that the difference is that big - many debate whether stunning an animal actually reduces pain and whether it makes any difference to the animal at all. I think there is enough evidence for me to back outlawing it personally, but even I wouldn't say that not stunning is barbaric. I think the whole practice is barbaric but that's where I have to accept the consensus. But no high horse to climb on over hal al and kosher death for you I'm afraid.

I guess if you genuinely think, as many do in this strange recent outburst of thought/paranoia on the far right, that there is a conspiracy of take over of our land coming from the Muslim population, that it is part of a master plan of sorts to absorb 'our way of doing things' then this is probably a waste of words anyway. Life must be very stressful and angry for you and others who feel this.

The law on slaughter specifically allows for it to occur without stunning for religious purposes. That is and always has been the position in the UK - it's 'our way', as it were.

You are right that the effectiveness of stunning is debatable, not least because it is dependent to a good degree upon the skill and care taken by the worker undertaking it.

[ragingpup]

The law on slaughter specifically allows for it to occur without stunning for religious purposes. That is and always has been the position in the UK - it's 'our way', as it were.

You are right that the effectiveness of stunning is debatable, not least because it is dependent to a good degree upon the skill and care taken by the worker undertaking it.

Thanks for clarification of law here Kerr. It shows that far from being a simplistic 'us and them' mentality, of us keeping our 'traditions' and 'rejecting theirs' or us 'pandering to 'their' whims without question - its actually quite complicated and we need to use our brains and personal sense of ethics. As I've said I am happy to embrace other cultures within our culture and law, and even though I'm a vegan I go along with the schools I belong to in providing meat products as best pleases all participating cultures. BUT, I would passionately back a change of law to outlaw a form of slaughter that was proven to bring unnecessary suffering to an animal. Even if that means going in the face of what a religion wants or decrees. We are a supposedly civilized society and there should be no place for this. However, we also live in a democracy that has law at the moment that permits it, however much it p*sses me off! And I'm not convinced personally that stunning an animal makes their death less painful or stressful. The whole bloomin' thing is awful and distasteful to me but then I don't run the world. But I would certainly support any campaign that revealed any convincing proof of suffering in this way and sought to ban it, despite any religious opposition.

Further thought Ellis, if you're concerned with animal welfare - my mate up in Rotherham used to work in a slaughter house and based on what he used to tell me about how some workers sought 'recreation' in their line of work, I would SERIOUSLY advice you to check your food supplier. A slaughter house that is RSPCA certified, takes animal welfare seriously is far more important that worrying about whether some bloke said blessings to the poor thing before it bid us farewell...

[Exiletyke]

Thanks for clarification of law here Kerr. It shows that far from being a simplistic 'us and them' mentality, of us keeping our 'traditions' and 'rejecting theirs' or us 'pandering to 'their' whims without question - its actually quite complicated and we need to use our brains and personal sense of ethics. As I've said I am happy to embrace other cultures within our culture and law, and even though I'm a vegan I go along with the schools I belong to in providing meat products as best pleases all participating cultures. BUT, I would passionately back a change of law to outlaw a form of slaughter that was proven to bring unnecessary suffering to an animal. Even if that means going in the face of what a religion wants or decrees. We are a supposedly civilized society and there should be no place for this. However, we also live in a democracy that has law at the moment that permits it, however much it p*sses me off! And I'm not convinced personally that stunning an animal makes their death less painful or stressful. The whole bloomin' thing is awful and distasteful to me but then I don't run the world. But I would certainly support any campaign that revealed any convincing proof of suffering in this way and sought to ban it, despite any religious opposition.

Further thought Ellis, if you're concerned with animal welfare - my mate up in Rotherham used to work in a slaughter house and based on what he used to tell me about how some workers sought 'recreation' in their line of work, I would SERIOUSLY advice you to check your food supplier. A slaughter house that is RSPCA certified, takes animal welfare seriously is far more important that worrying about whether some bloke said blessings to the poor thing before it bid us farewell...

I don't think that they are too bothered about bringing unnecessary suffering to humans let alone animals


The law on slaughter specifically allows for it to occur without stunning for religious purposes. That is and always has been the position in the UK - it's 'our way', as it were.




& you can always rely on Kerr to twist Ellis's "our way" comment or any other comment for that matter to suit his own Islamic mantra

[ragingpup]

I don't think that they are too bothered about bringing unnecessary suffering to humans let alone animals

'They' being Muslims? Including I presume my close family friends who we went out with last night, and their sons and daughters that our daughter plays and learn with at her school? Them too?

[Exiletyke]

Well good for you... bit like saying some of my best friends are black .Doesn't legitimise your comments though just as the following doesn't for mine
I too have a friend who is Muslim & I can tell you that she is a lovely person who has just along with many others finished Ramadan
She did not eat or drink anything during daylight hours & by the end of this practice was quite unwell Don't think she was allowed a paracetamol for her blinding headache & I saw her looking pretty poorly
For what?
So any religion, creed, faith or whatever label you wish to put on it that preaches such idiocy & inflicts such unnecessary hardship on fellow humans can't be right now can it

As Stephen Fry once said
Religion........sh1t it

[ragingpup]

Well good for you... bit like saying some of my best friends are black .Doesn't legitimise your comments though just as the following doesn't for mine
I too have a friend who is Muslim & I can tell you that she is a lovely person who has just along with many others finished Ramadan
She did not eat or drink anything during daylight hours & by the end of this practice was quite unwell Don't think she was allowed a paracetamol for her blinding headache & I saw her looking pretty poorly
For what?
So any religion, creed, faith or whatever label you wish to put on it that preaches such idiocy & inflicts such unnecessary hardship on fellow humans can't be right now can it

As Stephen Fry once said
Religion........sh1t it

I also dislike religion and like id to move consensually as far from all religious practice in the long term future. But it's here and we deal with it.

I much more hate racism which is what you do when you make general statements like that. What does your Muslim friend make of such a statement that includes her and all Muslims?

[Exiletyke]

What general statements do you mean If you would care to clarify I will try to answer your rather obscure comment
Many Catholics follow the principle of no contraception [artificial] & go through a lifetime of poverty with too many children for them to support but I presume you will accuse me of further racism
Another friend of mine is a pretty serious Catholic but uses artificial contraception but justifies is non adherance as "a matter between him & God" so there you go
BTW Muslims are followers of the faith of Islam & not a race just as Catholics follow the Catholic faith are not a race