O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[gm_gm]

Another reason to come out...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46288055

[millmoormagic]

Another reason to come out...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46288055

And you're a financial expert? you don't happen to think that the UK is, and will be post brexit, stable financially??? do you also believe in unicorns?

[rolymiller]

I'm amazed at you rp
You seriously think that KA could agree to disagree, that would mean he'd have to break the habits of a lifetime & agree
Bear in mind he argues for a living so he needs the practice
So remember don't cry havoc & don't let slip the dogs of war [I know it's tempting but don't respond]
If you & others starve him of his raison d'etre who is he going to argue with?

You know I think you may have hit the nail on the head with Kerr Exile. Assuming he is a lawyer or something of that description (which I think is still highly debatable by the way) maybe he just comes on here to hone his legal skills. It would explain why his arguments are so one sided and why he takes on posters on here with good well thought out arguments like pup and mmm. It could be that he has no interest in politics at all but sees Labour supporters as a good challenge when it comes to arguing a view point. He knows tory party policies are no challenge to him because they are so easy to take apart whereas Labour policies aren't, so he doesn't take on the likes of gm on here. He would just run rings round him and gain nothing.

I suppose it is a backhanded compliment to Labour in effect. Its irritating to the posters on here but there is method in his madness. I just wish that there was another way he could hone his skills and give us all a break.

[Exiletyke]

You know I think you may have hit the nail on the head with Kerr Exile. Assuming he is a lawyer or something of that description (which I think is still highly debatable by the way) maybe he just comes on here to hone his legal skills. It would explain why his arguments are so one sided and why he takes on posters on here with good well thought out arguments like pup and mmm. It could be that he has no interest in politics at all but sees Labour supporters as a good challenge when it comes to arguing a view point. He knows tory party policies are no challenge to him because they are so easy to take apart whereas Labour policies aren't, so he doesn't take on the likes of gm on here. He would just run rings round him and gain nothing.

I suppose it is a backhanded compliment to Labour in effect. Its irritating to the posters on here but there is method in his madness. I just wish that there was another way he could hone his skills and give us all a break.

There is

Don't respond

[ragingpup]

Another reason to come out...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46288055

Reading this, wouldn't you like the EU to be there to prevent the Corbyn inspired Labour spending spree that you keep saying he has planned?

[gm_gm]

Reading this, wouldn't you like the EU to be there to prevent the Corbyn inspired Labour spending spree that you keep saying he has planned?

I’d like to think we have parliament and the electorate for the later will keep him out.

[gm_gm]

And you're a financial expert? you don't happen to think that the UK is, and will be post brexit, stable financially??? do you also believe in unicorns?

I know nothing of how to feed and water ponies 5,000 feet underground and wouldn’t dream of telling you how to do this.

Financial expert yes

[KerrAvon]

What I'm confused about, and what I have learned on this thread is that through the withdrawal agreement you say (and I take on trust now, not got time to read) the EU have given us what we want in terms of the freedom to control our borders (good thing for me), the ability to make our own laws (good or bad dependent on who is running the country) and the ability to strike trade deals with other nations (good thing).

I don't even have time to go back over the 7 page doc you linked to this morning - wasn't there a commitment between the EU and UK to aim for tariff/friction free trade in the opening part? I thought I saw that but may have read it wrong as am crap at legal docs (as you see). If there is a genuine resolve in faith between the EU and UK to negotiate as close to that as possible, that ain't a bad outcome. If it isn't, then I'm concerend that we will be remorselessly penalised in the trade agreement for having our cake.

Where I differ from Davis, Mogg etc is that I always expected to get a battering from the EU (for same reasons you highlighted) but hoped that the public would become well informed that we couldn't have it both ways, see the light and pressure for a re-vote to give us either the option to remain or an informed willingness, through another democratic vote, to take the economic risks.

Biglad, GF etc are I think more on the side of Davis, Mogg in that they just want to get away, think we'll be fine and are willing to take whatever risks to secure a hard Brexit, ot at least believe they can force the EU to renegotiate more to our whims. My position is that I would not take that risk with this negotiating team or any from further right who are vying to replace her - I agree with you that the EU are not willing to give more to this government and their own red lines - but they would happily wait for a change of negotiating team via a GE or re-vote if this falls down. I say this as it would be hugely in their interests. You obviously don't see this so let's agree to disagree.

Yes, the political agreement refers to working towards a free trade arrangement, but the devil is in the detail and we will find that every EU country has its own ambitions about what should be included in one. As I mentioned earlier, fishing is going to be a particularly hot topic – we’ve got the fish and they want them.

I see no reason why the EU would want a change of negotiating team. They have gone through months of hard negotiations to get to the draft withdrawal arrangement. They don’t want Rees-Mogg, Davis and Johnson on the other side of the table ripping it up. If your reference to a GE refers to a fantasy in which Labour win power, I don’t see why the EU would welcome that. They don’t wear Momentum issued, rose tinted spectacles and can see that Labour is as split as the Tories with the Starmer/McDonnell fault line being particularly likely to break out into open hostilities at some point.

As an aside, I detect that you are something of a Remainer (you’d have to be to favour a Norway type deal). Do you truly feel that Labour would deliver a close relationship with the EU when it is run by Eurosceptics? In light of the desire by some posters to pin the blame for Brexit solely on the Tories, I checked the voting records for the Referendum Bill to confirm my memory that Labour supported it, but also noticed that Corbyn and McDonell were amongst 18 Labour MPs who defied the Labour whip to support a failed attempt to secure a EU exit referendum in 2011. Maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that they are siding with Rees-Mogg and Johnson to get a hard Brexit?

[KerrAvon]

Can you right now put your hand on your heart and say that this is a good deal for the UK? Going into blind negotiations with the EU holding all the cards? They could make these negotiations last for 10 years if they wanted. If no compromise can be made and why would there be a compromise from the EU it would have the effect of either we stay run by EU laws or we or forced to a hard Brexit. No matter how you look at it and from what angle this deal is so bad for the UK that only party line towers would even think of backing it.

You say that we would have control over our own borders yet the EU are wanting to split the UK? Where is that control over our own borders if we cant even control what is already part of the UK without a deal from the EU.

It’s an imperfect deal, but wanting a better one and getting one may be two different things. The EU doesn’t want the backstop to be triggered. They fear that access to the customs union will give us a competitive advantage in European markets. There is no advantage to them in stringing out trade deal negotiations.

It’s a bit rich of you to talk about the EU trying to to split the UK. I think you may be mistaking them for the leadership of the Labour Party who have spent their political lives campaigning for a border down the Irish Sea and for Northern Island and Great Britain to be permanently parted. They have also acted as cheerleaders for people who tried to split the UK by the use of bombs and bullets.

[KerrAvon]

With respect Biglad, are you not confusing the transition deal (going through the house now) with the final deal (which we have not started negotiating yet).

As I see it (and please someone explain if Im wrong) if the transition deal goes through our parliament and the EU approve it, we are effectively out of the EU (given negotiating the final deal).

No. The transition arrangements were agreed in March. It is the withdrawal deal that is going (or not going) through Parliament. We leave on March 29th next year with or without a deal unless we ask for an extension and the EU countries unanimously agree to give us one.