O/T:- Lewis Hamilton

[BigFatPie]

Correlation doesn't always equal causation is correct, hence correlation must mean causation is a fallacy.

A lot of people analyse data by ethnicity (or gender or religion or ***uality) and explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything.

I don't think I'm guilty of throwing the baby out of the bathwater. I also don't think my position has changed since the last conversation we had, but I'll clarify it to be on the safe side. I think that racism exists and is A Bad Thing, but you can't stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down. I also think that what is commonly referred to as systemic racism is basically systemic lack of educational economic opportunity, which in my opinion affects socio-economic groups of all ethnicities, and should be tackled as such.

I don't think racism shouldn't be combatted, I think we have actually done a fine job in combatting it. I just think that we should aim for a colour blind society, rather than having someone's race as the most interesting and relevant thing about them.

I'd love to know how you have been enlightened by your book, if you care to share it. Don't want to spoil any surprises but I'm guessing that anyone who doesn't swallow critical race theory hook, line, and sinker, is in denial about being, as you would say, a massive racist.

‘but you can’t stop it with t-shirts or by kneeling down’. ‘...explain the disparities with discrimination, as if it was the only explanation for anything’. The critical thinker speaks. You just can’t help simplifying and mischaracterising the position of those who don’t agree with you, certainly on this issue at least.

I’m fully aware that lack of opportunity is a problem which affects all groups, particularly when they elect governments as poor as the one we have. However, if you’re pretending that people of colour don’t have additional obstacles which the white community don’t face, I can’t agree. Don’t just read the article which I linked to above, read the references which it contains. Read the book I mentioned, rather than come to a conclusion which you’ve just guessed. It may well be of greater value than following academics who waste everyone’s time by sending fake studies off to journals. Read the actual experience of people who have suffered discrimination as well as William Coulston and er Patrick O’Flynn.

And honestly, 100% positively, with a cherry on top, I don’t know what in particular it is about Chicago which makes it a special case.

[drillerpie]

You just can’t help simplifying and mischaracterising the position of those who don’t agree with you, certainly on this issue at least.

Hmm. You might want to re-read, erm, pretty much all your posts ever, to grasp the full irony of that statement.

I’m fully aware that lack of opportunity is a problem which affects all groups, particularly when they elect governments as poor as the one we have. However, if you’re pretending that people of colour don’t have additional obstacles which the white community don’t face, I can’t agree.

People of colour can have varying level of difficulties depending on an almost infinite number of variables, exactly the same as white people. Plus, please tell me what the point is in enacting a socially divisive strategy to fix any issues when the solution, and we seem to agree on this at least, is the same for all groups?

Read the book I mentioned, rather than come to a conclusion which you’ve just guessed.

I actually asked you to share how you had been enlightened. I hope you will as I'm very curious to know.

academics who waste everyone’s time by sending fake studies off to journals. Read the actual experience of people who have suffered discrimination as well as William Coulston and er Patrick O’Flynn.

I already know people who have suffered racial discrimination first hand. I don't consider sending fake studies to journals as waste of time. I consider it very important and very brave work. Peer reviewed scientific journals are (or at least should be) the holy grail of science. If they are corrupted then we revert back to a pre-scientific state of being. Maybe you can't understand how important that is, but thankfully lots of people can.

And honestly, 100% positively, with a cherry on top, I don’t know what in particular it is about Chicago which makes it a special case.

Chicago is famous for its extremely high levels of black on black gun violence. I'm surprised you don't know that. Or maybe I'm not.

I was also surprised there was no mention of this in your article, and no attempt to contextualise the high number of black men killed by police there. Or maybe I wasn't.

Anyway the police in Chicago (and several other major US cities) have pretty much stopped pro-actively policing black communities since the BLM demonstrations. They don't want to be the next guy going global if it turns, as unfortunately it often does, into an altercation, so they just don't bother.

Now that you know that, and seeing as you're a huge fan of black lives, maybe you could tell me how the number of gun related deaths in Chicago this year compares to other recent years? Think of it as a glimpse of the sunlit uplands when the police have been defunded.

[BigFatPie]

Anyway the police in Chicago (and several other major US cities) have pretty much stopped pro-actively policing black communities since the BLM demonstrations. They don't want to be the next guy going global if it turns, as unfortunately it often does, into an altercation, so they just don't bother. .

Moving on from the other stuff, which we’ve covered ad nauseam before, what’s your source for this claim, because I’ll be honest, it sounds like bullsh!t. Happy to be corrected though.

There doesn’t seem to be much evidence here that ‘defunding the police’ is happening.

https://www.injusticewatch.org/news/...lice-staffing/

[drillerpie]

Moving on from the other stuff, which we’ve covered ad nauseam before, what’s your source for this claim, because I’ll be honest, it sounds like bullsh!t. Happy to be corrected though.

There doesn’t seem to be much evidence here that ‘defunding the police’ is happening.

https://www.injusticewatch.org/news/...lice-staffing/

Which claim exactly?

[drillerpie]

By the way still curious to know how you've been enlightened by the book.

[BigFatPie]

Which claim exactly?

The claim that ‘...the police in Chicago (and several other major US cities) have pretty much stopped pro-actively policing black communities since the BLM demonstrations’.

The book has a much more in-depth perspective on race and racism than I’ve read before. It’s a bit whiny in places, and I’m sceptical of some of the reasoning, but it’s worth a look.

[drillerpie]

The claim that ‘...the police in Chicago (and several other major US cities) have pretty much stopped pro-actively policing black communities since the BLM demonstrations’.

The book has a much more in-depth perspective on race and racism than I’ve read before. It’s a bit whiny in places, and I’m sceptical of some of the reasoning, but it’s worth a look.

Ok well if it's been relegated from 'enlightening' to just 'worth a look' I'll probably give it a miss. Appreciate your honesty though.

There's a change in police attitudes and behaviours every time there's an incident like the George Floyd killing (by that I mean video of a black man killed by the police played over and over again on all platforms to successfully create the false impression that this only ever happens to black people) which is referred to as the Ferguson Effect.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect

There has been a huge Ferguson Effect in the US this year. This article gives an idea of the scale. It could be just a coincidence or it could be down to other factors, but when you look at the timeline it seems quite a compelling hypothesis.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...ts-trump-biden

[upthemaggies]

Ok well if it's been relegated from 'enlightening' to just 'worth a look' I'll probably give it a miss. Appreciate your honesty though.

There's a change in police attitudes and behaviours every time there's an incident like the George Floyd killing (by that I mean video of a black man killed by the police played over and over again on all platforms to successfully create the false impression that this only ever happens to black people) which is referred to as the Ferguson Effect.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect

There has been a huge Ferguson Effect in the US this year. This article gives an idea of the scale. It could be just a coincidence or it could be down to other factors, but when you look at the timeline it seems quite a compelling hypothesis.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...ts-trump-biden

For those who can't be bothered with clicking on links,......

[drillerpie]

I could have also mentioned the lack of (human) resources now available to police departments after large rises in resignations and retirements.

It seems uncontroversial to me to say that more black people would be alive today had the BLM protests not occurred.

[BigFatPie]

Ok well if it's been relegated from 'enlightening' to just 'worth a look' I'll probably give it a miss. Appreciate your honesty though.

There's a change in police attitudes and behaviours every time there's an incident like the George Floyd killing (by that I mean video of a black man killed by the police played over and over again on all platforms to successfully create the false impression that this only ever happens to black people) which is referred to as the Ferguson Effect.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect

There has been a huge Ferguson Effect in the US this year. This article gives an idea of the scale. It could be just a coincidence or it could be down to other factors, but when you look at the timeline it seems quite a compelling hypothesis.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...ts-trump-biden

So when you claimed ‘the police in Chicago (and several other major US cities) have pretty much stopped pro-actively policing black communities since the BLM demonstrations’, what you should have said is ‘there’s a working hypothesis that suggests police ‘pull back’ following egregious incidents, but there’s lots of competing evidence which so far has led to no obvious conclusion’. You could have added ‘Obviously which conclusion you come to will be strongly influenced by what prejudices you went in with’. In other words what you claimed was in effect bullsh!t, as I suspected.

Even if the ‘Ferguson effect’ does have merit, does that mean that people shouldn’t protest or complain when police officers fatally put their knees on the necks of their suspects, for fear of this leading to increased murders in the following months? I really think you should give this more thought.

A book can be both ‘worth a look’ and ‘enlightening’. You’ve made your mind up on this subject anyway, so I suspect other opinions/perspectives would fall on deaf ears.