Yorkshire CCC Racist Row

[BaggieSingh]

Words can, and are, used by many people to insult and deliberately offend other people, whatever their backgrounds; it always has been the case and always will be. Being unpleasant to someone is, well, unpleasant, but if we want freedom of speech, we have to accept that some people will be offended either accidentally or on purpose. I am not condoning racism, far from it, the problem really lies in where do you draw the line? What is offensive to some is not to others, while some may go out of their way to be ‘deliberately offended’, just as a means to stir up trouble or get their own back on someone. I honestly don’t know what the answer is. Treat others as you would have them treat you, to my mind, is an ideal we should all attempt to aim for, however, none of us are perfect.

Can’t argue with that really (treat others)
Agree racism is often used to stir trouble or gain advantage, which as someone who tries to ignore it and just get on with it, this annoys me massively

[baggieal]

I was starting to wonder when this topic was going to be discussed.
I get why you don’t think the word paki is racist as you believe it is just abbreviated for someone who is of pakistani origin. Unfortunately despite it being abbreviated, for decades it has been used to be racist and derogatory term to anyone of south asian origin. Even the term chinky is racist. That’s a fact. This isn’t something new, 20-30 years ago it was racist and it is today. I see why you guys might think otherwise. I’m sure we had this debate before and I must say the recent news doesn’t surprise me one bit. The term is racist used by and originated by racists.

The term brit isn’t racist nor is yank. I don’t understand the comparison being made here. I’m sure we’ve all experience dirty public toilets , dirty bogs that has loads of graffiti saying ‘go home paki’ or ‘go home brit’ which do you think is racist?

There are problems within Yorkshire in general and it being hotspot for racial tension. It always has been. It’s no surprise with a lot of trouble makers in high populated Pakistani communities. But you do get them in all societies. I’ve found amongst many people from Yorkshire to be very ignorant, 9/10. I just get why, but it seems so true.

I wouldn’t have though Vaughan was racist but do believe there is a lot institutional racism there and it’s time it has finally been brought up.

Evening Regis! I agree with most of what you say and my view is the word Paki is used in a racist way where Brit or Yank isn’t. So yes you are right! One exception though many say they are having a chinky tonight - whilst it might not be great vocabulary to use - I don’t believe this is racist as it’s been said for years. Remember Whelen the Sports guy who also owned Wigan - he was unfairly pulled to pieces for saying it and nearly was ruined.

It’s how words are used and said - for example you would not say to a black person - I bet you love bananas!

My youngest goes to a great school with all religions including Jewish and Asians as my belief is it’s the real world and balanced. I would also say it’s a fact the real bright kids at the school are from Asian families who really value education and want their kids to succeed to go into medicine, law etc.

Everything is about education. My 13 year old loves going to places like Dubai - Rome - Barcelona etc to learn about history and cultures as opposed to going to a place where there’s loads of Brits.

Even taking kids to places of interest, museums, seeing different cultures - it’s all education but many parents don’t get it! I was fluent in Spanish at 16 and how many Brits could be bothered to learn another language? Comes down to ignorance again!

[soulman101]

If I went out with my friends for dinner it would be like the United nations.
My good friends are from Greece, Turkey,India( Sihks and Hindu's), Jamaica, Scotland, Irish, Italy, Pakistan, I'm even good mates with some Gypsy's and a lot of Wolves fans.
At the end of the day there's good and bad in all people. Just look beyond their colour or their religion.

[Titchfieldbaggie]

I’ve been called Paki many many times in my life and I very much doubt it was with the same intent that someone would say Scot, Brit, Yank etc and if someone was going to call me that as a joke without negative connotations they would have to be on friendly terms with me, same thing with the aforementioned bald mate

Also Mick whether you are Indian or Pakistani it’s not the accuracy of the term that offends it’s the intent. Indians aren’t offended by the fact someone is mistaking them for a Pakistani, but by what the intent of being called Paki and the other words that come with it or are inferred

As for statute of limitations I do agree with you guys, if this fella was so upset he should have addressed it ages ago with the fella concerned or someone else. But I can understand why it’s difficult, but in that case get over it no point raising hell years later

As for Vaughn I’ve always liked him, but don’t know him obviously, but there are reports of him having said some unsavoury things and also aiming it at the fact that people were of a certain heritage and prioritising others
Now I don’t know if that happened, and to be honest it’s very easy to confuse patriotism with prejudice especially if you and others are confused with where you stand (E.g. am I Indian or British?)

Strange times, but what makes me laugh is how potential unfair treatment is easily spotted when the victim is similar to yourself

PS - Mick you can say what you want in your own house mate, just best not to say things that may cause offence when in public, can’t see why that’s an issue
You wouldn’t drive down the middle of a road and say well I feel like doing this so why can’t I?
Exactly as it may cause harm to someone right and there will be consequences for you.

Possibly the best post I've ever read on here

[BaggieSingh]

If I went out with my friends for dinner it would be like the United nations.
My good friends are from Greece, Turkey,India( Sihks and Hindu's), Jamaica, Scotland, Irish, Italy, Pakistan, I'm even good mates with some Gypsy's and a lot of Wolves fans.
At the end of the day there's good and bad in all people. Just look beyond their colour or their religion.

Agreed Lloyd, just not all people can inc non white people, there’s always some sort of division, human nature I guess

Also sounds a bit “I’m not racist my best mates a …. “
😂 (Laughing emoji in case that doesn’t show up)

[BaggieSingh]

Possibly the best post I've ever read on here

Got loads of great ones I reckon, just never football related ones 😂 (another attempt at humour)

[Omegstrat6]

An interesting thread on a quite complex subject, most of which seems to revolve around intent when using words. It is made more difficult because the meaning and connotation of certain words can also alter over time and their implications change. The same words then have quite different connotations to different people/generations. An example of this might be the derogative word "nigger". Clearly a racist word but later taken up by some younger generations of Black Americans and used in a slightly different context although still echoing-and being very aware of-the word's original intent.

What was an acceptable word to use at one time may change. At one time the Civil Rights movement would themselves use the words "coloured" or "negro" but later generations would find the terms offensive and prefer "Black".

As for the use of the word "Paki", I seriously doubt that most people would not see the use of such a word as being both deliberately racist and offensive. I totally understand that there are those who might want to use it purely as an abbreviation with no malice attached (as in "Brit" for example) but to do so they would be tone deaf to the usual connotations of the word. In language it is the general usage of a word which defines its meaning.

The use of words also gets picked up by kids and then used by them without them ever really understanding the meaning of those words or the impact they might have on others. Im sure many of us brought up in the 60s/70s in a time of casual ***ism can also recall the use of words like "puff", "spaz" or "mong" nestling next to "chinky" or "Paki". In a way, it is almost an innocent use of offensive words.

Any discussion of racism almost always falls these days into a Black/White narrative but racism is far broader than that and affects all colours/cultures. There is racism between Brown/White, Brown/Black as well as the "colourism" within both Black and Brown communities between the darker and lighter skinned. There is racism within the White communities too such as anti Irish or Polish or French. Drill down and you get the regional tropes such as the "thick brummie", the "wide Es*** Boy", the "thievin Scouser" or the "tight Scotsman". Perhaps the most offended against group of all are the "gingers"!

We are all different and should recognise that but what is important is to try and embrace these differences in order to try and enrich our culture rather than keep picking at these differences. I do not mean that we should not be able to question aspects of anyones culture-eg religion or politics-but that we should work to have a better understanding. If we keep focusing on the differences -the "narcissm of small differences as Freud and Reich put it-then that provides a breeding ground for an unsavoury totalitarian society.

Having said all this, I firmly believe that it is far more important to have the right to offend than be offended. I do not mean by this that we should have the right to incite hatred or violence, only that the current slide into always siding with the offended is a slippery slope into censorship (so called "cancel culture"). Not everyone is offended by the same comments for example and just because an individual is offended by something does not naturally make them "right" and the offender "wrong". I have sympathy for those who view too many of our later generations as becoming thin skinned "snowflakes" but can also see he point of view of others who claim that some are not as offended as they should be because they have been culturally brainwashed into viewing it as acceptable. It is an interesting and difficult topic but IMHO threads like this are important because they encourage us all to think more deeply about it-and that can only be a good thing. My brain hurts now

[Leicesterbaggie]

As Omegstrat has so eloquently stated, it is a very complex subject. We are not privy to all that has gone on in the Yorkshire affair and therefore should wait until more of the facts are at our disposal before making comment on that specific situation. All I can say is that the best route to take is to treat others as you wish to be treated yourself. If that maxim is followed there shouldn't be too many problems. We must be careful though as we seem to now have a generation who will find offence in any innocent comment. As far as I'm concerned the word 'Chinky' is not used in an offensive manner and purely and simply is a shortened term for a Chinese Take - Away. Perhaps I'm wrong!

[Omegstrat6]

As Omegstrat has so eloquently stated, it is a very complex subject. We are not privy to all that has gone on in the Yorkshire affair and therefore should wait until more of the facts are at our disposal before making comment on that specific situation. All I can say is that the best route to take is to treat others as you wish to be treated yourself. If that maxim is followed there shouldn't be too many problems. We must be careful though as we seem to now have a generation who will find offence in any innocent comment. As far as I'm concerned the word 'Chinky' is not used in an offensive manner and purely and simply is a shortened term for a Chinese Take - Away. Perhaps I'm wrong!

Dont know if it was that eloquently put but thanks if you thought so Leic!

As for the use of "chinky" I would guess you are right as colloquially it doesnt seem to be used as or meant to be offensive. Maybe one day "paki" might be used in the same vein, but sadly not yet.

Phild's original post was also about past cultures and how we judge those today. This is another tricky one as everyone is subject to the cultural norms of their day. I can understand the activists not wanting the statue of Colstonbecause he made all his money through the slave trade and surely is not representative of todays society and not something that should be celebrated with a statue of him in a public place. Keep the statue but place it in a museum and put it in its historical context. As for Churchill, yes, many of his beliefs and attitudes (eg on eugenics and his many failings on India to alleviate famine and bloodshed) are not palatable to us today and rightly so-but if it were not for him the outcome of the Second World War would have been very different. Surely he should still be celebrated for his achievements as well as being brought up for his failings. When teaching history we should always strive to teach a balanced picture to show the whole "truth"-however hard that is to come by. It is certainly not PC to say anything but bad things about colonialism today for example but Empire was what put the allegedly Great in Britain and whilst there was indeed a whole lot of greed and cruelty involved, many colonies also saw benefits too. Neil Furguson's book "Empire" argues these points well but I always think of that scene from "life of Brian" about "what have the Romans ever done for us?"

As for all these instances where old ***ist/racist comments/tweets are dragged up to be used against people, surely the real issue is to see what these people are like now and what their attitudes and behaviour demonstrate today, not 20 years ago or whatever. Those brought up in a culture that accepted racial/***ual comments as banter were likely to have conformed to the norms of the day-but that does not mean that they have not changed. So much hatred and prejudice is down to upbringing or ignorance and lack of understanding. Previous records of racially or ***ually motivated assault is one thing but comments? Its not like I am arguing for a statute of limitations on war crimes! If someone holds their hand up and apologises for past mistakes and can demonstrate through their behaviour and attitudes that they are different now then what is the problem? I remember when reading "The Three Degrees" that both Brendan Batson and Cyrille Regis were appalled by Ron Atkinson's use of the n word but neither could say that the way in which he treated them was inherently racist and felt that Atkinson had mostly let both himself and them down by his comments. We have probably all done or said things in the past that we now regret or know to be wrong but most of us can learn from our mistakes and be better. Maybe forgiveness isnt in the Woke handbook....

[mickd1961]

I’ve been called Paki many many times in my life and I very much doubt it was with the same intent that someone would say Scot, Brit, Yank etc and if someone was going to call me that as a joke without negative connotations they would have to be on friendly terms with me, same thing with the aforementioned bald mate

Also Mick whether you are Indian or Pakistani it’s not the accuracy of the term that offends it’s the intent. Indians aren’t offended by the fact someone is mistaking them for a Pakistani, but by what the intent of being called Paki and the other words that come with it or are inferred

As for statute of limitations I do agree with you guys, if this fella was so upset he should have addressed it ages ago with the fella concerned or someone else. But I can understand why it’s difficult, but in that case get over it no point raising hell years later

As for Vaughn I’ve always liked him, but don’t know him obviously, but there are reports of him having said some unsavoury things and also aiming it at the fact that people were of a certain heritage and prioritising others
Now I don’t know if that happened, and to be honest it’s very easy to confuse patriotism with prejudice especially if you and others are confused with where you stand (E.g. am I Indian or British?)

Strange times, but what makes me laugh is how potential unfair treatment is easily spotted when the victim is similar to yourself

PS - Mick you can say what you want in your own house mate, just best not to say things that may cause offence when in public, can’t see why that’s an issue
You wouldn’t drive down the middle of a road and say well I feel like doing this so why can’t I?
Exactly as it may cause harm to someone right and there will be consequences for you.

BS.......some of the worst racism I’ve ever encountered was during my time as a rep for a frozen food company in the West Mids.

Regardless of you making light about Indians not being offended by mistaken for Pakistani’s that is not my experience.

They absolutely loathed each other!

The Indians routinely referred to their near neighbours as “dirty P*****”.......I can only comment on what I regularly heard.

When I moved into the sport’s trade I dealt with a well known Indian family who owned a sports wholesale business on Tame Rd in Witton, the Nathwani family.....lovely people.

They gave me a lot of help when I first set up my own business and even let me use their warehouse, I generally found the Indian people much nicer and easier to deal with but they never hid their contempt for Pakistani’s.

The worst racism I have ever personally had to deal with was at a six a side tournament on our own Hawthorns pitch about 10 years ago.

An all Pakistani heritage side from Pleck constantly abused my lads from minute one in the game even though we had an Indian lad playing for my side.

I complained to the black referee about it and he dismissively waved me away, I complained to the organisers from the club on the day and got fobbed off.

Our Indian lad was the son of a former poster on her, a guy called HS Baggie, his name was Harry Singh, a very successful businessman who lived next door to Marc Antoine Fortune by pure coincidence.

Harry came up to me after the game and put his arm around me and apologised profusely on behalf of all Asians, he was disgusted at how my lads and his own son had been treated.

He finished off by saying.....”but that’s what I expect from THAT lot”.

I accept your premise that the “P” word is used negatively though, I was really trying to establish the fact that most other nations are not a bit bothered by being abbreviated.

My own view on the whole situation is that a line needs drawing in the sand that everyone is aware of and from that point forward everyone knows that use of these terms is going to have serious repercussions.....going back 10 to 15 years is just digging for the sake of it.

Let me lighten the mood by highlighting a faux pas of my own yesterday.

I was in a business meeting with my team of solicitors and a very attractive trainee lady was taking the notes.

In the course of the conversation I used the phrase “tits up” before the light bulb went on in my head!😩😳

I immediately apologised and she laughed it off, I hope that she didn’t just laugh because she felt she had to though.

Retraining the brain isn’t easy at my time of life and for much older people but it clearly shows how easy it is to put your foot in it these days.