O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Andy_Faber]

It’s really unwise, imo, to attempt to draw Covid based conclusions based on race and ethnicity.

I've given up with Swale, so rA can you explain why? Especially when its seen as important by such respected organisations as Sage.

Incidentally, and I read all related posts very carefully, Geoff is right that your shop anecdote (and Swales' earlier ones) do nothing to invalid/refute Geoff's, and whilst Swale's are probably rant-based inventions, yours just seems to indicate you don't get the point

[swaledale]

What it tells me is that the white populations of Derby and south London have much the same attitude towards mask compliance - you say 55-60%, I say 65%. It says nothing about my other observation.

As for Swale's gig, I'm not surprised that a Fleetwood Mac tribute act attracted the non diverse and age of audience that it did. The mask attitude adds more grist to the mill of "analysis" but still does not invalidate my observation.

Let's keep observing, the greater the anecdotal data base, the greater the sample size becomes and the greater credibility of any conclusion.

Ah but then you see thats the problem with anecdotal evidence, it depends upon the judgement (good, bad or indifferent) of the observer. A 1,000 anecdotal stories will not actually prove anything, too many variables and yes the age range may well have been greater, maybe I just noticed the over 55's not wearing masks? Thats one of the big problems with anecdotal "evidence"? Most people don't give very accurate accounts of what they have seen.

Its one of the reasons why AF's favourite gripe - "over representation of BAME in the media" - based on what? His perception? Fine but its highly likely that his perception does not equate with reality.

Reminds me of a course on taking witness statements I attended aeons ago, the first rule of which was - don't take what your told at face value, 5 different people will see the same incident and each account will be different. This was very clearly demonstrated by a practical demonstration which was very illuminating.

Also I think you must have misread my post, I stated that less than 5% of the largely white audience were wearing masks and thats a generous assessment! So not sure how my observation ties in with yours? Or was that just a slip on your pat willing there to be some connection?

Anyway the gig wasn't in Derby, haven't lived anywhere near Derby for the best part of 5 years.

[swaledale]

I've given up with Swale, so rA can you explain why? Especially when its seen as important by such respected organisations as Sage.

Incidentally, and I read all related posts very carefully, Geoff is right that your shop anecdote (and Swales' earlier ones) do nothing to invalid/refute Geoff's, and whilst Swale's are probably rant-based inventions, yours just seems to indicate you don't get the point

Not really sure how you term my reasoned response as a rant, but I guess thats your ingrained prejudice showing through?

Also yet again your effectively calling me a liar, based on an assumption which only a fool would make, but we have been down this road before and yet you keep doing it.

I'm not sure rA quite meant what you have taken him to mean, I think and he wasn't clear on this I agree, he means conclusions based on anecdotal observations? I'm sure SAGE aren't basing their research on what the "man in the street" has observed! I rather think that they are a little more sophisticated than that.

Whether rA's anecdotes or mine invalidate GP's isn't the point, the point is that none of the anecdotal observations prove anything!

I realise the average person in the street draws conclusions from their perceptions, I had thought you might have enough up top to realise that ones perceptions aren't a reliable guide to what is actually happening. But then I guess you did make the comment (several times) about excessive BAME representation in the media not representing the world you live in, so maybe I overestimate your ability to recognise this.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ah but then you see thats the problem with anecdotal evidence, it depends upon the judgement (good, bad or indifferent) of the observer. A 1,000 anecdotal stories will not actually prove anything, too many variables and yes the age range may well have been greater, maybe I just noticed the over 55's not wearing masks? Thats one of the big problems with anecdotal "evidence"? Most people don't give very accurate accounts of what they have seen.

Its one of the reasons why AF's favourite gripe - "over representation of BAME in the media" - based on what? His perception? Fine but its highly likely that his perception does not equate with reality.

Reminds me of a course on taking witness statements I attended aeons ago, the first rule of which was - don't take what your told at face value, 5 different people will see the same incident and each account will be different. This was very clearly demonstrated by a practical demonstration which was very illuminating.

Also I think you must have misread my post, I stated that less than 5% of the largely white audience were wearing masks and thats a generous assessment! So not sure how my observation ties in with yours? Or was that just a slip on your pat willing there to be some connection?

Anyway the gig wasn't in Derby, haven't lived anywhere near Derby for the best part of 5 years.

Actually nowhere did I reference your data with Derby, quite specifically since you didn't say where the gig was.

Again as with rA example, your anecdotal evidence (and no I didn't misread the low mask count stat) in no way influences or changes my observation concerning zero compliance within a black sample. Had you said you'd been to see a Dre Dre tribute act with 95% black fully masked up attendance, then it would.

But you didnt

[Andy_Faber]

Whether rA's anecdotes or mine invalidate GP's isn't the point, the point is that none of the anecdotal observations prove anything!

Anecdotes never PROVE anything, GP's goes much closer to pointing towards something than either yours or rA's. GP has offered a number of insightful anecdotes on this thread and its strange that you only take issue with those relating to race.

[Andy_Faber]

Its one of the reasons why AF's favourite gripe - "over representation of BAME in the media" - based on what? His perception? Fine but its highly likely that his perception does not equate with reality. .

Here's the reality

The (pro-BAME) Creative Diversity Network (CDN) published its Third Cut report after surveying over 30,000 diversity forms relating to over 600,000 TV production contributions.

The CDN found that “BAME [Black and Minority Ethnic] on-screen representation” is a remarkable 23% — far above the BAME share of the British general population, estimated at 14%''.

they (CDN) see that as a good thing. I personally don't, despite having a BAME former family member and still close friend who is part of that on-screen cohort. You may also see it as a good thing, and if so, explain it. But if you want to keep bringing it up, don't persist in denial of it. Confront it and discuss it

[Trickytreesreds]

Here's the reality

The (pro-BAME) Creative Diversity Network (CDN) published its Third Cut report after surveying over 30,000 diversity forms relating to over 600,000 TV production contributions.

The CDN found that “BAME [Black and Minority Ethnic] on-screen representation” is a remarkable 23% — far above the BAME share of the British general population, estimated at 14%''.

they (CDN) see that as a good thing. I personally don't, despite having a BAME former family member and still close friend who is part of that on-screen cohort. You may also see it as a good thing, and if so, explain it. But if you want to keep bringing it up, don't persist in denial of it. Confront it and discuss it

Andy, it's over compensation as we all know.
The equality needed addressing, but it went past reality and kept going.
Look at the BBC's fgures alone. 22% representation.
Yet I object to the term BAME any way. The ASIAN part really. Asian as in Russian/ middle east/Indian/ Far east?
I certainly don't see many far east ethnicities and we do have them.

Problem with the media is, it is exactly that in the public eye. You switch the telly on and the face you see, is what you see.
Such has been the drive to correct a wrong, every effort is made to put BAME figures in the spot light.
It makes the media look bad, instead of just trying to make it normal.

NB, has anyone tried looking at films/ box sets lately from staions like Disney/ Netflix?
I have seen several recreation scenes, that have included black people in historical events, that couldn't possibly have been there.
US WW2 scenes, have been doctored to show black service personal, to be in far greater numbers than they actually were, due to the restrictions placed on enlistment and the roles given to them.
Many wrongly went under the radar for their service, including the native American Navaho indians, and their uncracked codes.
Many wrong doings needed retold. But don't make up untruths about the reality.
The young today believe what they are told as the facts.

Thats put a target on my back

[Geoff Parkstone]

The rewriting of history is a difficult thing Tricky. If an Asian actor took a prominent part in a new version of Robin Hood, should we say "that's wrong as there were no Asians in the country then" or should we say "that's right because an actor is an actor regardless of appearance" ??

Do we accept anachronistic appearance or what?

[swaledale]

Actually nowhere did I reference your data with Derby, quite specifically since you didn't say where the gig was.

Again as with rA example, your anecdotal evidence (and no I didn't misread the low mask count stat) in no way influences or changes my observation concerning zero compliance within a black sample. Had you said you'd been to see a Dre Dre tribute act with 95% black fully masked up attendance, then it would.

But you didnt

Your right you didn't you were referring to rA's post.

Given that you made this statement "Let's keep observing, the greater the anecdotal data base, the greater the sample size becomes and the greater credibility of any conclusion." I can only assume your knowledge of how data is used properly to arrive at a conclusion is something your not familiar with.

I doubt whether you would be taking a vaccine based on a large sample size of anecdotal accounts that nobody died! So I'm puzzled as to why you think your statement has nay merit?

[swaledale]

Anecdotes never PROVE anything, GP's goes much closer to pointing towards something than either yours or rA's. GP has offered a number of insightful anecdotes on this thread and its strange that you only take issue with those relating to race.

Well I take issue as to whether the anecdotes are "insightful", they are purely a reflection of his perception, frankly not really adding anything towards meaningful knowledge but if it amuses people fair enough.

Its strange that you think I take issue with only those relating to race actually, any evidence that this is the case? I certainly don't respond to everything GP posts, but if i see conclusions being drawn which have no basis in fact, sometimes I comment, many times I don't.