O/T:- The NHS strike - for or against?

[magpie_mania]

... little elite playing his usual silly games of trying to divert some of the really constructive content. Some hardy lefties in denial that the NHS needs fundamental change. I was party to a conversation regarding the building of Edith Cavell Hospital, Peterborough, when he said (words to the effect) - before a pending election - ' get this effing hospital built; I don't effing care what it effing costs; just do it'. This from the man who sold his socialist principles (for the comfy life) and got Bliar elected when the left were certainly leaning away from the liar ...

One hospital?

Who was it who said 40 new hospitals? The same one who said £350m per week for the NHS.

6.5 years since the vote - where's the £120bn gone?

[Magpies1959]

Nice one OP67. The government told sooo many lies and tried sooo hard to get us to vote leave. I think in actual fact it was that leaflet that made my mind up too leave, after seeing the anti Brexit bias.

[OP67]

Nice one OP67. The government told sooo many lies and tried sooo hard to get us to vote leave. I think in actual fact it was that leaflet that made my mind up too leave, after seeing the anti Brexit bias.

The government did everything it could to get us to vote remain mate including spending tax payers money on the leaflet even though it was suppose to be un-bias and not use any money to show bias. The Vote Leave campaign wasn't a government run thing, nor was the remain campaign.

[jackal2]

Interesting thoughts, Ochpie.

I think the best response to this is the very decentralised (and hybrid public-private) social care system, which has been for years a complete disaster.

Public and private sector models can both be flawed if they aren’t managed properly and kept honest. The problem with the private sector model is the temptation to prioritise profit at the expense of service delivery. The problem with the public sector is that it receives people’s money irrespective of whether the service being delivered is good and bad, and this can lead to sloppiness and waste.

The key to reforming and saving the NHS might be to divide it into smaller pieces that are more transparent and can be more easily managed and performance-monitored. Whether that takes the form of public or private ownership, or both, is less important than ensuring these structures are subject to proper quality control where poor performance or profiteering can be rooted out. The current behemothic structure doesn’t lend itself to effective management of anything.

You can't cut your way to efficiency though.

Yes and no. Generally speaking, organisations do not go searching for efficiencies when money is plentiful because there’s no pressure or incentive to do so. It’s usually when money becomes tight or rationed that organisations start examining what they do and how they do it, investigating out of necessity whether they can deliver the same service for less cost, for instance by adopting modern technology and digital solutions rather than expensive, outdated manual practices. You’re right however that if you make ‘cuts’ in the wrong areas then it can have detrimental impact on service and end up costing more. The best solutions are often ‘invest to save’ ones where you invest for example, capital in new technology, to save on revenue costs for many years to come.

The problem with the current NHS is that it’s so big and opaque. Re-organising it into smaller, more inspectable/manageable chunks should make it easier to see where there’s good practice that could be replicated elsewhere, where investment in new technology or indeed higher salaries could be genuinely beneficial, and where there's poor practice and money being wasted.

I do agree that it's good to have an honest conversation about the advantages and disadvantages of the NHS system, but I see no evidence the NHS system couldn't be fit for purpose. EVERY healthcare system is a bottomless pit because demand has no limit. Reform is definitely needed - though one of the biggest drivers of inefficiency in the NHS is that reform hasn't stopped there in decades, often seemingly for its own sake.

Yes I agree the NHS has been subject to a lot of piecemeal half-hearted reform, mainly because politicians of all flavours have tinkered around the edge of the problem for fear of having ‘difficult conversations’ with the public. I see no reason why the NHS should be doomed to failure, but it’s creaking because successive governments throughout its history have been fiddling while Rome burns, and obviously the pressure and cost of Covid hasn't helped at all.

You’ve hit on a key point – managing demand. You’re right that demand potentially has no limit, but early intervention through the right public health measures can play a massive role in reducing demand on the NHS. Prevention is better than cure.

The UK relies on foreign healthcare workers and the competitiveness of the UK in that market has absolutely tanked. Meanwhile the UK has made it harder for British HCWs to get trained.

Yep, poor policy over a long period of time. We should be recruiting and training more British nurses rather than recruiting from abroad, and yes of course, that requires investment.

[Elite_Pie]

Well, it's been interesting and quite amusing catching up on this thread! It seems a few spent part of their Christmas Day making stuff up again, so let me correct them:

... little elite playing his usual silly games of trying to divert some of the really constructive content. Some hardy lefties in denial that the NHS needs fundamental change.

Really, or did you just make that up? I have never denied the NHS needs fundamental change, because that's obviously just what it needs.

I care about British business and workers and I care about our environment, unlike you who couldn't give a sh*t!!!

Again, not remotely true. I was pointing out the British business has to be competitive to win contracts, that's how business works. You couldn't be more wrong about me not caring about the environment, I believe climate change is real and have always supported green causes on here. That's why I wasn't happy with "farmers destroying 1000's of miles of hedge rows and all it's habitats".

Well not long now till 2024 when Labour will make everything in the garden rosy. I am sure they have all the answers, and it will make a nice change to be run by honest, caring and upstanding folk.

I've never suggested that Labour are the solution. I said that we need to get rid of this Conservative government because they are dragging this country into the gutter. I also said the the best alternative I can think of in the short term is a coalition government.

[Elite_Pie]

The bit that made me chuckle was the picture of the Brexit leaflet! We all know that the whole Brexit campaign was fought on a pack of lies and scare stories from both sides, so what came true and what didn't? The leave campaign promised more money for the NHS, taking control of our borders, great new trade agreements and a better economy for starters.

So what's happened? The NHS is in turmoil, illegal immigrants are still coming here in their thousands, trade with Europe has reduced, and the economy has been trashed with higher prices and rampant inflation. I did warn you that "taking control of our own destiny" would lead to things like this, when that control was placed in the hands of a bunch of corrupt arseholes.

[Bohinen]

Just the response I expected, but not from you UTM! My daughter was on the picket line as a nurse on Tuesday (she even made the BBC local news!), but their strike and and protest was about safe staffing rather than pay. This goes way deeper than just money, and I will be happy to provide real life examples of the strain they are under.

Expect everyone to be right wing on here, Elite. My wife is a nurse, my daughter is a nurse. They have had a real terms 7% pay cut. Of course I support them. People need to get off their knees and stand up to this governement, the worst in living memory.

[Elite_Pie]

Expect everyone to be right wing on here, Elite. My wife is a nurse, my daughter is a nurse. They have had a real terms 7% pay cut. Of course I support them. People need to get off their knees and stand up to this governement, the worst in living memory.

Thanks for bumping this Bohinen, I didn't provide any real real life examples of the strain they are under. So here we go:

My youngest daughter paid £9,000 per year to qualify as a nurse on a 3 year uni course. Then Covid happened, so she had to do online facetime lectures. She didn't feel she was learning a lot, so she signed up for NHS Professionals as an HCA. She worked shifts on Covid wards and caught the virus. She was living with us at the time, and me and my wife also tested positive. She also did unpaid ward placements (part of her uni course), where she really felt she learned. One of them was on an Oncology ward which was the hardest of all, but when she qualified that's where she applied to work. She got the job, but after 3 months on the ward she found herself in charge because the two senior nurses had phoned in sick. She (as a complete novice) was in charge of an understaffed ward with patients placed on end of life care. Her official hours were 12.5, but she ended up working a 14 hour night shift until they found other staff. Even after that she couldn't sleep when she finally got home because she was worrying if she'd missed something. It came close to ending her nursing career, but my wife (an ex-nurse) talked her around. She joined the strike, but her protest was far more about understaffing than pay.

This isn't an isolated case, it's becoming increasingly more common. That's why I'm passionate about this, and it's why I hate it becoming derailed by talk of nurses needing food banks. My daughter doesn't need a food bank, all she wants is to be able to do her job properly.

[magpie_mania]

Thanks for bumping this Bohinen, I didn't provide any real real life examples of the strain they are under. So here we go:

My youngest daughter paid £9,000 per year to qualify as a nurse on a 3 year uni course. Then Covid happened, so she had to do online facetime lectures. She didn't feel she was learning a lot, so she signed up for NHS Professionals as an HCA. She worked shifts on Covid wards and caught the virus. She was living with us at the time, and me and my wife also tested positive. She also did unpaid ward placements (part of her uni course), where she really felt she learned. One of them was on an Oncology ward which was the hardest of all, but when she qualified that's where she applied to work. She got the job, but after 3 months on the ward she found herself in charge because the two senior nurses had phoned in sick. She (as a complete novice) was in charge of an understaffed ward with patients placed on end of life care. Her official hours were 12.5, but she ended up working a 14 hour night shift until they found other staff. Even after that she couldn't sleep when she finally got home because she was worrying if she'd missed something. It came close to ending her nursing career, but my wife (an ex-nurse) talked her around. She joined the strike, but her protest was far more about understaffing than pay.

This isn't an isolated case, it's becoming increasingly more common. That's why I'm passionate about this, and it's why I hate it becoming derailed by talk of nurses needing food banks. My daughter doesn't need a food bank, all she wants is to be able to do her job properly.

Elite, I agree that it is being derailed, but the Union leaders need to do that, lead. If they were to really stand up and say that it's about far more than pay it would really help. I can only say it as I see it, but I do hear by far the most talk about it being about pay. Similarly about food banks - those from inside who are saying that are not helping at all. Then add in those saying that they could earn more in a supermarket ..... how do they feel many supermarket workers on far less think about that?

I am absolutely in favour of paying nurses fairly, and them being able to do their jobs properly.

[Elite_Pie]

Elite, I agree that it is being derailed, but the Union leaders need to do that, lead. If they were to really stand up and say that it's about far more than pay it would really help.

I think in the main they have, but those who have talked about food banks etc have done more harm than good.

Sadly comments like that tend to get newspaper headlines.