English identity?

[Andy_Faber]

Not sure why thereÂ’s been so much mention of Islam eitherÂ…that very definitely didnÂ’t come from the OP, but from elsewhere.

?

Incorrect, ‘the OP’ was first to mention Islam in a post on 23/9, in a comment that has been pretty thoroughly called into question since. Of course I’ll stand corrected

[Geoff Parkstone]

Your village of three coltures and one of my favourite buildings (Hagia Sophia in Istanbul) do show how cultures can coexist with different religious beliefs, but most everything in history points to religion being the source of more hatred, warfare, murder and generally naughty things than anything else. This is not unique to any one belief system.

The "aggressiveness" or religions seem to vary over time but I see Islam as one of the most aggressive in terms of retaining followers. Judaism is arguably more violent in defence of its self perceived rights but I think Islam has an iron rod and, as noted before, does no accept the division of church and state.

Historically the church has been a cornerstone of being English - you may not accept it, I don't exactly either. This cornerstone has been eroded for the best part of the post war era and now is under threat of no longer being the majority belief (although many of the "agnostic" vote may lean towards COE if pushed.

So back to subject, I'd say religion was very much part of being English historically but that is now compromised

[MadAmster]

As I don't believe in God and have an aversion to religions, does that mean I'm not English then?

[Andy_Faber]

As I don't believe in God and have an aversion to religions, does that mean I'm not English then?

No, it doesn’t make you any less English than me. A Christian.

[Geoff Parkstone]

As I don't believe in God and have an aversion to religions, does that mean I'm not English then?

No, but it's a facet of being English. You don't have to align with all the facets to qualify. I don't have any religious tendency, nor I believe does rA, but I at least still identity as English. I won't speak for rA.

I think that religion, nonetheless, has defined "The Englishman" historically and although it's a fading facet it is still part of that English quality we are seeking to identify.

I thing royalism is too, again one I don't hold much with. Pubs, Sunday roasts, country cottages - the usual culprits. But the times they are a'changing.

[Trickytreesreds]

Not entirely sure if that reply is to me, GP…but I honestly don’t think the decline in the CoE, which has been evident throughout our lifetimes, has much to do with it. It’s many years since I was struck by the realisation that while Catholic churches appeared full of ordinary folk who felt no need to dress up, their CoE equivalent was populated by people who were in the choir and a few elderly people who felt the need to wear their Sunday best.

Not sure why there’s been so much mention of Islam either…that very definitely didn’t come from the OP, but from elsewhere.

Don’t agree with MA (or Tricky) about the qualities that make us English…they seem to me to be qualities of decency which can be found, not universally, throughout the World and, in my personal experience, certainly throughout Western Europe and North America.

Coincidentally I’m currently situated high up above a Spanish village which is known as the ‘Village of the Three Cultures’, those being Christian, Islam and Jewish. Despite the bloody past, they celebrate the contributions of those three cultures to the current village’s existence in a thoroughly positive and healthy way, and although today it’s more of a mixture of local Spanish, Dutch, German and Brits everyone appears to get on and, having been to countless bars, restaurants and supermarkets I can assure Tricky that the Brits do not hold the monopoly on being able to queue properly.

Maybe then, seeing as we have been unable to define it, there is - as RS and GP initially suggested - no such thing as ‘English identity’ which perhaps begs the question, what was Jenrick talking about…and why?

You really are confusing the issue here.
If as many of us here no doubt are. We are generations of white, indiginous born here. Our values have been handed down through the generations and our history being talked about,and being proud of it. To our little quirks enhanced. From the the traditional cup of tea, to pints of bitter, cricket and fish and chips being the best food to take away. We were all Christian really and our history reflected that, in good and bad.
In the last 70 years that has been changed drastically. So the question you should be asking is. Is "being English " traditionally what we all grew up with, or something else now? Im sure the opinion will change massively when you compare London/Birmingham, to Oxford/ York for example.
The old traditional interpretation of is certainly being played down , if not watered down.

Going back to the Christian element, Christmas for example. At the end of WW2 , I'm sure every house would be celbrating that day with what we would call a traditional christmas. Some go to church/ all shops shut/ family meal/ family get together/ drinks and sing song. Is that Still a traditional day? Yes and no.

[ramAnag]

Incorrect, ‘the OP’ was first to mention Islam in a post on 23/9, in a comment that has been pretty thoroughly called into question since. Of course I’ll stand corrected

Not sure about that, AF. I’ve always thought OP was shorthand for ‘Original’ or ‘Opening’ Post i.e. the post which establishes the subject of a particular thread. If I’m wrong about that so be it and I’ll apologise, but there was certainly nothing in my original/opening post of this ‘English Identity’ thread to suggest any mention of Islam.
Beyond that the first mention was made, indirectly, by Tricky in post 22 when he introduced ‘Palestine and Pakistan flags’ into the debate. That did prompt my use of the word ‘Muslim’ - you’re right - but seeing as about 92% of Palestinians and 97% of Pakistanis identify as Muslim I don’t think I can be blamed for taking the debate in that direction.

[ramAnag]

No, but it's a facet of being English. You don't have to align with all the facets to qualify. I don't have any religious tendency, nor I believe does rA, but I at least still identity as English. I won't speak for rA.

I think that religion, nonetheless, has defined "The Englishman" historically and although it's a fading facet it is still part of that English quality we are seeking to identify.

I thing royalism is too, again one I don't hold much with. Pubs, Sunday roasts, country cottages - the usual culprits. But the times they are a'changing.

Of course I identify as ‘English’, GP…I was born in England to English parents and, despite spending the first year of my life in Wales, I am undeniably English and have no problem with it at all. Sometimes I feel relatively proud…sometimes, as you too have intimated, not so.
Neither do I deny that religion is important, although not actually to me, I just don’t think the general decline of the CoE and the much less prolific observation of Sunday as a ‘day of rest’ has had any huge impact.

[Trickytreesreds]

Ra Queuing-
Queuing is etiquette, that we can really observe back from the industrial revolution. It is a discipline that is/or was engrained in us as children. The Germans are very strict on it as well, but that is also their nature.
Ever been to the south of France? Its rudeness beyond belief.
Italy? Bedlam.
Want the worst? Try Russians.

[Trickytreesreds]

The Muslim community (from BBC surveys), have been asked this question themselves.
Do you identify as English?

The report shows that while 47% of Muslims in England and Wales were born in the UK, 73% state their only national identity is British

So, I would deduce from that, that unless you are of a lineage of white indiginous, then even Muslims know the difference. (dons tin hat)