Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

It is, imo, a more nuanced issue than you make out and it is interesting that you choose to overlook the issue of class where sentencing is concerned.

NB I didn't, my pony might have few tricks but it has more than one

[ramAnag]

NB I didn't, my pony might have few tricks but it has more than one

Sorry, no idea what you’re talking about, but my reply was to TTR.

[swaledale]

Tricky appears to have provided a cast iron example in his immediately-following message, which I was aware of from a news report on the BBC website, I?m guessing it?s still there. Tricky?s interpretation, even accounting for his perceived bias in this area, seems spot-on, and I can?t find any rationale relating to it.

Mm its undoubtedly a fact that there is a disproportionate % of ethnic minorities in prison, the same applies to people from a poor socio economic background and its generally been the case that a rich person of whatever ethnicity can generally fare better in the courts than those groups.

Given that the ultimate aim of any sentence is both punishment, deterrent and rehabilitation, at least it ought to be, then considering whether a specific group whether that's based on ethnicity, economic circumstances or class is being given harsher sentences is one of the roles of the sentencing council.

The key phrase here is "Lord Justice Davis said the new guidance aimed to correct disparities which lead to people from ethnic minorities receiving longer sentences on average than white offenders." Not really sure why anybody (apart of course from those stoking culture wars for their own political purpose) would have an issue with that being corrected.

Regrettably the government, seems intent on out reforming Reform at the moment but hey ho I guess pandering t the ill informed voter is a necessity in this post truth world, whereby a falsehood posted on social media is believed over the actual facts.

[swaledale]

I don?t think anyone is saying otherwise, but it is true that where some t*enage girls themselves, and some parents, were complicit it does make things harder. You may not want to hear that but, having worked in this area, I can assure you - without excusing anything at all - that such scenarios are not uncommon.

Likewise no one has disputed that the grooming gang form of abuse is one favoured by Pakistani abusers. White abusers are probably more likely to act individually but does it really make any difference to the victims?

You won?t get called any of the things you claim by saying that Pakistanis are the main participants of grooming gangs. You will when you try and make out that specific races/religions are synonymous with child abuse?and rightly so imo.

Yes, justice and the law should apply equally to everyone. There are many ways in which this doesn?t always appear to be the case but I?m not sure skin colour/ s*xuality/ religion are the principle examples of being treated advantageously by the courts. Could you provide some examples?

Unfortunately our resident Forum LBH is incapable of understanding the complexities and nuances of these cases, or it seems understanding that often its nothing to do with race or ethnicity and everything to do with incompetence, prejudice and lack of understanding amongst the authorities. Who when found out, plead that their inaction was due to concern over the ethnicity of SOME of the perpetrators.

In much the same way successive governments used to claim it was the EU that stopped them doing certain actions, when in fact it was down to their unwillingness, incompetence or simply the fact that they ignored what was going on. The EU and the Race card, as indeed with the health and safety card can be played equally by authorities to excuse their inaction. incompetence or idleness as by any victims.


I guess if your a racist and a xenophobe, then the fact that people of a certain ethnicity are being given longer prison sentences for comparable crimes than white people is of no concern to you. Which merely proves that person is indeed a racist and a xenophobe, though to be honest a large number of his posts on this Forum over the years have proven that beyond doubt. A dog will always respond to a dog whistle it seems.

[swaledale]

the police/ council/social services had no right to ignore, bat away any of these girls. They were minors and not legally responsible for anything.
Their claims WERE ignored out of fear, is ISMS, and community harmony under the flag of multi culturalism. That is a fact. Amazing some of those councillors involved, were in those grooming gangs

Not that old chestnut, yes of course whites are the main child abuses. Simple ratio's of population proves that.
But I don't see any whites getting ignored where justice of grooming is concerned.

BTW, when it comes to grooming gangs, Pakistanis lead the way in the crime charts.

(this is where all the claims racist. xenophobe. little Englamder. bigot etc) would be used for daring to point this out

Justice and law apply to everyone. As recently shown, some in the system, think skin colour/***uality/religious back ground, should get you a softer approach in court.

I'll make an an exception and respond to your ill informed *******s. That is not what's being said and as you would know if you were capable of serious thought, the background of every offender is or should be taken into account when sentencing. And if, as has been shown people of a certain ethnicity are receiving longer prison sentences for the same crimes as other groups, you don't think that's an anomaly that needs correcting? Or do you just respond to racist dog whistles?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I'll make an an exception and respond to your ill informed *******s. That is not what's being said and as you would know if you were capable of serious thought, the background of every offender is or should be taken into account when sentencing. And if, as has been shown people of a certain ethnicity are receiving longer prison sentences for the same crimes as other groups, you don't think that's an anomaly that needs correcting? Or do you just respond to racist dog whistles?

You are right that same sentence should apply to same crime regardless of race, gender, age, ***ualuty . but how often are there two identical crimes (and perps) to align in terms of physical, financial and emotional impact on the victim, still less any other aspects such as other crimes to be taken into account, past track records, and of coursethe degree of violence assosciated with the incodent.

My reading of the "informal advice" given to the sentencing board was that it should take into account the -ism associated with the perpetrator - eg give lesser sentneces to a minority perp or one in impoverished circumstances. This was what the minister was railing against. I may be wrong here, but its the imression I got from the Lammy report. This would equally as unacceptable to more severe sentencing for said minorities

[swaledale]

You are right that same sentence should apply to same crime regardless of race, gender, age, ***ualuty . but how often are there two identical crimes (and perps) to align in terms of physical, financial and emotional impact on the victim, still less any other aspects such as other crimes to be taken into account, past track records, and of coursethe degree of violence assosciated with the incodent.

My reading of the "informal advice" given to the sentencing board was that it should take into account the -ism associated with the perpetrator - eg give lesser sentneces to a minority perp or one in impoverished circumstances. This was what the minister was railing against. I may be wrong here, but its the imression I got from the Lammy report. This would equally as unacceptable to more severe sentencing for said minorities

Except it specifically refers to the evidence that those from an ethnic minority background were receiving disproportionately longer sentences than others for the same crime.

The suggestion that as you put it that the -ism should be taken into account and lesser sentences given was not the suggestion. A judge under sentencing guidelines is supposedly required to take account of all circumstances when sentencing.

In terms of identical crimes - that's not what is being said, (by the sentencing council, the Lammy report was 10 years ago) obviously crimes of a similar nature aren't identical, but they can be comparable, there are types of crimes e.g. robbery, assault etc which have guideline sentences, then there are guidelines as to other factors, such as pleading guilty, use of violence, previous record etc. which are taken into account.

Obviously, apart from the simplistic punishment and retribution view, the justice system is however imperfectly trying to balance both punishment, deterrent and rehabilitation.

[ramAnag]

You are right that same sentence should apply to same crime regardless of race, gender, age, ***ualuty . but how often are there two identical crimes (and perps) to align in terms of physical, financial and emotional impact on the victim, still less any other aspects such as other crimes to be taken into account, past track records, and of coursethe degree of violence assosciated with the incodent.

My reading of the "informal advice" given to the sentencing board was that it should take into account the -ism associated with the perpetrator - eg give lesser sentneces to a minority perp or one in impoverished circumstances. This was what the minister was railing against. I may be wrong here, but its the imression I got from the Lammy report. This would equally as unacceptable to more severe sentencing for said minorities

I think, GP, that there is some confusion over this issue. Some of it, as in yours and mine, genuine and some more contrived and malicious, put about by those who want to perpetuate the infantile ‘two tier Kier’ jibe.

The question, imo, seems to revolve around the need for PSRs (pre-sentence reports) which have been identified as necessary for a range of people including those fitting the description of ethnic minority, cultural minority, faith minority, transgender, pregnant, post natal, primary carer for dependent relatives, victims of trafficking, victims of and those at risk of further domestic abuse.

It’s easy to see how the first four at least are likely to set off the two tier Kier brigade and others on the Right who rarely look at things beyond the most superficial level and I agree that greater clarification is necessary.

Having acknowledged that we also, again imo, have to recognise that we already have a two tier justice system and have done for years. There is a disproportionate level of incarceration as far as non-whites and poor people are concerned. The inequalities of the prison/justice systems is something Dickens was writing about well over 150 years ago but, much more recently a Cardiff University study identified that the imprisonment rate for the ten most deprived areas of England is ten times that of the ten least deprived areas of the country. Probably no great surprise. Certainly an example of a two tier system I would suggest.

[SithHappens]

Surely Farage has to resign after leaked messages prove the actions against lowe are a witch hunt.

[swaledale]

Surely Farage has to resign after leaked messages prove the actions against lowe are a witch hunt.

I mean Lowe is a thoroughly unpleasant person, but then so is Farage. But you over look the fact that Farage is mainly about himself and making money and being a so called disruptor than actually leading a serious political party. He should resign over the fact that he spends more time on cosying up to the Right Wing loonies in the States, he is on his 8th or 9th visit since the election, and his side hustles than he does on his role as an MP.

However, as has been shown recently, despite people having a negative view of both him and his role as an MP, they would still vote for him. Because in times of turmoil people who basically lack either the ability or desire to understand reality, vote for somebody who appears to offer something different, who offers simple "solutions" to complex issues.

I've been castigated often for my warnings about how Hitler came to power in Germany, yet Trump offers many parallels, persuade enough people that being a dictator and having an authoritarian state is the only way to get things done and one can quickly pervert the democratic process. History shows the end result is that generally the people who suffer, end up getting shafted or killed in pointless wars include the very people who voted the ****ers in!!

I mean we have our own pathetic example on here, one who has lauded the military dictatorship that is Thailand as how a country should be run!!!