OT another terrorist attack.

[Ellis_D]

The reality of the situation is that the child wouldn't make the choice - his or her parent would.

I see that your objection has switched from Halal per se to becoming one about humane slaughter. Is that part of a wider animal welfare agenda or is it the Islamic connection that does it for you?

As raging points out, the whole livestock industry has plenty of rough and inhumane edges and, if you can't accept that, vegetarianism is really your only option.

What you see as appeasement and the path to a civil war, I see as business decisions for the individuals, businesses and public bodies concerned.

My argument about halal has always been what halal slaughter is supposed to be - the slaughter without stunning. I've never given a toss about whether the people of any religion want to say a few words before the slaughter, and I made that quite clear. Absolutely nothing to do with an Islamic connection.

Funny though, that I just mentioned you in my last post as being one who tries to twist another's words.

[millmoormagic]

My argument about halal has always been what halal slaughter is supposed to be - the slaughter without stunning. I've never given a toss about whether the people of any religion want to say a few words before the slaughter, and I made that quite clear. Absolutely nothing to do with an Islamic connection.

Funny though, that I just mentioned you in my last post as being one who tries to twist another's words.

Here's the crux of it though Ellis, just like your explanations of extremism in the koran, you take it to the Nth degree, which, while that may well be what it says 'on the tin', doesn't ever, ever mean what actually happens in reality, and you can't distnguish between the two, you need to learn the difference.

[Ellis_D]

Here's the crux of it though Ellis, just like your explanations of extremism in the koran, you take it to the Nth degree, which, while that may well be what it says 'on the tin', doesn't ever, ever mean what actually happens in reality, and you can't distnguish between the two, you need to learn the difference.

But halal slaughter DOES happen without stunning in our country..... And I would hazard a guess that lots of us have eaten that meat without knowing.

[millmoormagic]

But halal slaughter DOES happen without stunning in our country..... And I would hazard a guess that lots of us have eaten that meat without knowing.

Correct, but you've already had some facts given you, this link gives a general ercentage of 84% halal is stunned before slaughter, not perfect but much higher than you want everyone to believe...

https://fullfact.org/news/stunned-sl...-meat-sold-uk/

[KerrAvon]

My schools source from suppliers where animals are stunned. Yes you take it on trust, as you do with fairtrade and any other ethical supplier. Before I was vegan I bought eggs from an ethical farm supplier. How did I know that they were ethical and not buying battery eggs and putting them in their boxes? Always an element of trust and RSPCA do random inspections on anything that they certify. I'm guessing that you trust a range of products that have various claims - but strangely you aren't willing to trust meat suppliers of hal al food? What does that tell us about your attitude towards them?

If you are saying that you are angry at the other 10% of meat that is not stunned then I tend to agree with you - as far as I'm aware the practice is illegal (may be wrong) and if it isn't then it should be. I agree with you here. However, don't flatter yourself that the difference is that big - many debate whether stunning an animal actually reduces pain and whether it makes any difference to the animal at all. I think there is enough evidence for me to back outlawing it personally, but even I wouldn't say that not stunning is barbaric. I think the whole practice is barbaric but that's where I have to accept the consensus. But no high horse to climb on over hal al and kosher death for you I'm afraid.

I guess if you genuinely think, as many do in this strange recent outburst of thought/paranoia on the far right, that there is a conspiracy of take over of our land coming from the Muslim population, that it is part of a master plan of sorts to absorb 'our way of doing things' then this is probably a waste of words anyway. Life must be very stressful and angry for you and others who feel this.

The law on slaughter specifically allows for it to occur without stunning for religious purposes. That is and always has been the position in the UK - it's 'our way', as it were.

You are right that the effectiveness of stunning is debatable, not least because it is dependent to a good degree upon the skill and care taken by the worker undertaking it.

[ragingpup]

The law on slaughter specifically allows for it to occur without stunning for religious purposes. That is and always has been the position in the UK - it's 'our way', as it were.

You are right that the effectiveness of stunning is debatable, not least because it is dependent to a good degree upon the skill and care taken by the worker undertaking it.

Thanks for clarification of law here Kerr. It shows that far from being a simplistic 'us and them' mentality, of us keeping our 'traditions' and 'rejecting theirs' or us 'pandering to 'their' whims without question - its actually quite complicated and we need to use our brains and personal sense of ethics. As I've said I am happy to embrace other cultures within our culture and law, and even though I'm a vegan I go along with the schools I belong to in providing meat products as best pleases all participating cultures. BUT, I would passionately back a change of law to outlaw a form of slaughter that was proven to bring unnecessary suffering to an animal. Even if that means going in the face of what a religion wants or decrees. We are a supposedly civilized society and there should be no place for this. However, we also live in a democracy that has law at the moment that permits it, however much it p*sses me off! And I'm not convinced personally that stunning an animal makes their death less painful or stressful. The whole bloomin' thing is awful and distasteful to me but then I don't run the world. But I would certainly support any campaign that revealed any convincing proof of suffering in this way and sought to ban it, despite any religious opposition.

Further thought Ellis, if you're concerned with animal welfare - my mate up in Rotherham used to work in a slaughter house and based on what he used to tell me about how some workers sought 'recreation' in their line of work, I would SERIOUSLY advice you to check your food supplier. A slaughter house that is RSPCA certified, takes animal welfare seriously is far more important that worrying about whether some bloke said blessings to the poor thing before it bid us farewell...

[Exiletyke]

Thanks for clarification of law here Kerr. It shows that far from being a simplistic 'us and them' mentality, of us keeping our 'traditions' and 'rejecting theirs' or us 'pandering to 'their' whims without question - its actually quite complicated and we need to use our brains and personal sense of ethics. As I've said I am happy to embrace other cultures within our culture and law, and even though I'm a vegan I go along with the schools I belong to in providing meat products as best pleases all participating cultures. BUT, I would passionately back a change of law to outlaw a form of slaughter that was proven to bring unnecessary suffering to an animal. Even if that means going in the face of what a religion wants or decrees. We are a supposedly civilized society and there should be no place for this. However, we also live in a democracy that has law at the moment that permits it, however much it p*sses me off! And I'm not convinced personally that stunning an animal makes their death less painful or stressful. The whole bloomin' thing is awful and distasteful to me but then I don't run the world. But I would certainly support any campaign that revealed any convincing proof of suffering in this way and sought to ban it, despite any religious opposition.

Further thought Ellis, if you're concerned with animal welfare - my mate up in Rotherham used to work in a slaughter house and based on what he used to tell me about how some workers sought 'recreation' in their line of work, I would SERIOUSLY advice you to check your food supplier. A slaughter house that is RSPCA certified, takes animal welfare seriously is far more important that worrying about whether some bloke said blessings to the poor thing before it bid us farewell...

I don't think that they are too bothered about bringing unnecessary suffering to humans let alone animals


The law on slaughter specifically allows for it to occur without stunning for religious purposes. That is and always has been the position in the UK - it's 'our way', as it were.




& you can always rely on Kerr to twist Ellis's "our way" comment or any other comment for that matter to suit his own Islamic mantra

[Ellis_D]

Further thought Ellis, if you're concerned with animal welfare - my mate up in Rotherham used to work in a slaughter house and based on what he used to tell me about how some workers sought 'recreation' in their line of work, I would SERIOUSLY advice you to check your food supplier. A slaughter house that is RSPCA certified, takes animal welfare seriously is far more important that worrying about whether some bloke said blessings to the poor thing before it bid us farewell...

Incredible, despite me already replying to you on this subject yesterday and making it clear that I'm not interested one way or another whether someone wants to say a blessing to an animal before slaughtering it, for religious purpose or otherwise, and that that would make NO DIFFERENCE to me whether I would buy it or eat it, you are still going on about it as though I have an issue with it.

After a promising start on here you seem to have fallen into the category of leftist tosser who rather than reading what someone says, just makes things up to make them fit into their view of what a far right Nazi would really think, and twists other things to suit the agenda. Which is a shame.

Oh, and by the way, I haven't lived in Rotherham since I was about one and a half years old.

[ragingpup]

I don't think that they are too bothered about bringing unnecessary suffering to humans let alone animals

'They' being Muslims? Including I presume my close family friends who we went out with last night, and their sons and daughters that our daughter plays and learn with at her school? Them too?

[Exiletyke]

Well good for you... bit like saying some of my best friends are black .Doesn't legitimise your comments though just as the following doesn't for mine
I too have a friend who is Muslim & I can tell you that she is a lovely person who has just along with many others finished Ramadan
She did not eat or drink anything during daylight hours & by the end of this practice was quite unwell Don't think she was allowed a paracetamol for her blinding headache & I saw her looking pretty poorly
For what?
So any religion, creed, faith or whatever label you wish to put on it that preaches such idiocy & inflicts such unnecessary hardship on fellow humans can't be right now can it

As Stephen Fry once said
Religion........sh1t it