O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

[upthemaggies]

From all the published statistical information it is extremely clear that the vaccines 'work' to varying levels in different groups of people. For example it would be extremely difficult to argue that they don't work against mortality from Covid-19 when just 1.2% of the deaths from the disease in England for the first half of 2021 were fully vaccinated individuals. ( I appreciate that in the timescale of this pandemic that is months out of date but it is a figure taken from strong and well reviewed data.)

Obviously that old chestnut that 'you can say anything you like using statistics' makes us all very wary of such data. However, when the data is consistently in the same range from multiple sources in multiple countries on multiple continents it should become harder and harder to question. With the arrival of the newest widespread variant, Omicron, and future variants, the data will probably vary from that from previous variants but hopefully not by much.

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.

We're all sheep, but some of us are the "weird sheep" who don't always behave as you'd expect of a sheep. When it snows, most sheep stand around confused having lost their bearings, then you get the one sheep who jumps onto a wagon or something. He's the "weird sheep".

"the vaccines 'work' to varying levels". Well that's just the point, it's not a sterilising vaccine, it's a prophylactic and a weak one at that, we're looking at 10 weeks tops now. Basic understanding of biological evolution will tell you've got real problems with that.

[macstop]

From all the published statistical information it is extremely clear that the vaccines 'work' to varying levels in different groups of people. For example it would be extremely difficult to argue that they don't work against mortality from Covid-19 when just 1.2% of the deaths from the disease in England for the first half of 2021 were fully vaccinated individuals. ( I appreciate that in the timescale of this pandemic that is months out of date but it is a figure taken from strong and well reviewed data.)

Obviously that old chestnut that 'you can say anything you like using statistics' makes us all very wary of such data. However, when the data is consistently in the same range from multiple sources in multiple countries on multiple continents it should become harder and harder to question. With the arrival of the newest widespread variant, Omicron, and future variants, the data will probably vary from that from previous variants but hopefully not by much.

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.

I totally disagree with you Swale, but you will always remain a friend we really must get on with our lives no matter how long we have left imo

[Bernard_Bresslaw]

My concern is the complete lack of nuance or open debate at the point we've reached. We've developed a global appetite for being in two horse races where you're either in one team or the other. A degree of inaccuracy or sometimes a downright lie is ok if you're doing it for the right reasons it seems.

This goes both ways. I saw a social media post where the author shared a video of an 'ambulance crew' pushing a gurney on a pavement then doing multiple takes. This was claimed to be evidence of crisis actors but was in fact the taping of a scene for Holby City. At the same time ITV used an actual crisis actor (whose professional profile is still online) doing his best puppy dog eyes saying he wished he'd been jabbed. Others have also been used.

You have Dr Hillary saying 90% of admissions are unjabbed when the actual figure was 35%. Granted he is widely known as an oily little weasel but even The Economist quoted 80%-90% around the same time before discreetly saying the data was 'out of date'.

I personally have no idea what level of protection the vaccine gives. I do remember the 'trial' results of 95% protection and whichever meaningful studies you now use (ie not Javid et al's favourite of '32 times more likely' etc) it's clearly way less than that. At the same time there is a clear uplift in protection and I can't see how this can be denied.

Early on there was a brief push on the issue of personal health and fitness. It just stopped. Telling people that some of their problems might be their own fault is never a good idea when the other side will tell them it isn't.

Someone has used the usual comeback to the comparison with smokers, the obese etc, being 'you can't catch them'. Aside from the risk of passive smoking that is true.

However there is a multitude of studies showing that the obese have far higher chances of worse outcomes and more severe infection even than people who are just overweight. There were also other studies (admittedly pre vaccine) which showed that based on actual droplet output 80% of transmission was caused by 20% of people. The main drivers? Level of infection (heavily influenced by obesity), age and BMI. Whenever the media gleefully come across an unvaxxed patient who 'wishes they'd had the jab' they are usually described either as 'having no underlying conditions' or 'fit and healthy', yet they are almost invariably enormous.


Obesity is rising alarmingly fast (up 22% even before lockdown no.1). In 2018 11,000 people were admitted to hospital with obesity itself listed as the primary factor). Given that the justification for every wave of cancelled non-covid appointments, missed diagnoses, increases in depression, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse etc is usually 'to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed' why is covid so special?

One of my best friends spent 3 years at AZ and from his experience what are referred to as 'lifestyle drugs' are massively profitable and are of course most welcome. Yet what will protect the NHS from increased admissions due to poor lifestyle choices?

There are clearly people whose risk profile means that the vaccine is a very good bet for them. My children and I, for example, are clearly not.

It is extremely difficult to separate the factual truth from the rest at the best of times but it has never been harder than it is now. The outright censorship of views which don't at least unquestioningly back the efficacy of vaccines is cause for concern in itself. Social media fastidiously scrubs itself clean yet the Taliban have a Twitter account when vaccine scepticism is seen as dangerous. The mental gymnastics which are being attempted even to avoid a conversation about the increased instances of heart scares etc in athletes are astonishing. Just have the conversation, be honest about vested interests and don't feel you always have to back 'the team'. It's ok not to have a clue but to try to mitigate your own risk whilst considering others as best you can

[upthemaggies]

My concern is the complete lack of nuance or open debate at the point we've reached. We've developed a global appetite for being in two horse races where you're either in one team or the other. A degree of inaccuracy or sometimes a downright lie is ok if you're doing it for the right reasons it seems.

This goes both ways. I saw a social media post where the author shared a video of an 'ambulance crew' pushing a gurney on a pavement then doing multiple takes. This was claimed to be evidence of crisis actors but was in fact the taping of a scene for Holby City. At the same time ITV used an actual crisis actor (whose professional profile is still online) doing his best puppy dog eyes saying he wished he'd been jabbed. Others have also been used.

You have Dr Hillary saying 90% of admissions are unjabbed when the actual figure was 35%. Granted he is widely known as an oily little weasel but even The Economist quoted 80%-90% around the same time before discreetly saying the data was 'out of date'.

I personally have no idea what level of protection the vaccine gives. I do remember the 'trial' results of 95% protection and whichever meaningful studies you now use (ie not Javid et al's favourite of '32 times more likely' etc) it's clearly way less than that. At the same time there is a clear uplift in protection and I can't see how this can be denied.

Early on there was a brief push on the issue of personal health and fitness. It just stopped. Telling people that some of their problems might be their own fault is never a good idea when the other side will tell them it isn't.

Someone has used the usual comeback to the comparison with smokers, the obese etc, being 'you can't catch them'. Aside from the risk of passive smoking that is true.

However there is a multitude of studies showing that the obese have far higher chances of worse outcomes and more severe infection even than people who are just overweight. There were also other studies (admittedly pre vaccine) which showed that based on actual droplet output 80% of transmission was caused by 20% of people. The main drivers? Level of infection (heavily influenced by obesity), age and BMI. Whenever the media gleefully come across an unvaxxed patient who 'wishes they'd had the jab' they are usually described either as 'having no underlying conditions' or 'fit and healthy', yet they are almost invariably enormous.


Obesity is rising alarmingly fast (up 22% even before lockdown no.1). In 2018 11,000 people were admitted to hospital with obesity itself listed as the primary factor). Given that the justification for every wave of cancelled non-covid appointments, missed diagnoses, increases in depression, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse etc is usually 'to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed' why is covid so special?

One of my best friends spent 3 years at AZ and from his experience what are referred to as 'lifestyle drugs' are massively profitable and are of course most welcome. Yet what will protect the NHS from increased admissions due to poor lifestyle choices?

There are clearly people whose risk profile means that the vaccine is a very good bet for them. My children and I, for example, are clearly not.

It is extremely difficult to separate the factual truth from the rest at the best of times but it has never been harder than it is now. The outright censorship of views which don't at least unquestioningly back the efficacy of vaccines is cause for concern in itself. Social media fastidiously scrubs itself clean yet the Taliban have a Twitter account when vaccine scepticism is seen as dangerous. The mental gymnastics which are being attempted even to avoid a conversation about the increased instances of heart scares etc in athletes are astonishing. Just have the conversation, be honest about vested interests and don't feel you always have to back 'the team'. It's ok not to have a clue but to try to mitigate your own risk whilst considering others as best you can

That's a great post.

I do feel for people who haven't had Covid that have been jabbed and are now having doubts. What do you do next? I wouldn't want to be in that position.

There are a lot of doomsday scenarios, but the one great hope would be that the human body has a remarkable capacity for repairing itself. So whatever damage is done by stress, the virus or vaccines, hopefully the majority can bounce back.

[BigFatPie]

My concern is the complete lack of nuance or open debate at the point we've reached. We've developed a global appetite for being in two horse races where you're either in one team or the other. A degree of inaccuracy or sometimes a downright lie is ok if you're doing it for the right reasons it seems.

This goes both ways. I saw a social media post where the author shared a video of an 'ambulance crew' pushing a gurney on a pavement then doing multiple takes. This was claimed to be evidence of crisis actors but was in fact the taping of a scene for Holby City. At the same time ITV used an actual crisis actor (whose professional profile is still online) doing his best puppy dog eyes saying he wished he'd been jabbed. Others have also been used.

You have Dr Hillary saying 90% of admissions are unjabbed when the actual figure was 35%. Granted he is widely known as an oily little weasel but even The Economist quoted 80%-90% around the same time before discreetly saying the data was 'out of date'.

I personally have no idea what level of protection the vaccine gives. I do remember the 'trial' results of 95% protection and whichever meaningful studies you now use (ie not Javid et al's favourite of '32 times more likely' etc) it's clearly way less than that. At the same time there is a clear uplift in protection and I can't see how this can be denied.

Early on there was a brief push on the issue of personal health and fitness. It just stopped. Telling people that some of their problems might be their own fault is never a good idea when the other side will tell them it isn't.

Someone has used the usual comeback to the comparison with smokers, the obese etc, being 'you can't catch them'. Aside from the risk of passive smoking that is true.

However there is a multitude of studies showing that the obese have far higher chances of worse outcomes and more severe infection even than people who are just overweight. There were also other studies (admittedly pre vaccine) which showed that based on actual droplet output 80% of transmission was caused by 20% of people. The main drivers? Level of infection (heavily influenced by obesity), age and BMI. Whenever the media gleefully come across an unvaxxed patient who 'wishes they'd had the jab' they are usually described either as 'having no underlying conditions' or 'fit and healthy', yet they are almost invariably enormous.


Obesity is rising alarmingly fast (up 22% even before lockdown no.1). In 2018 11,000 people were admitted to hospital with obesity itself listed as the primary factor). Given that the justification for every wave of cancelled non-covid appointments, missed diagnoses, increases in depression, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse etc is usually 'to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed' why is covid so special?

One of my best friends spent 3 years at AZ and from his experience what are referred to as 'lifestyle drugs' are massively profitable and are of course most welcome. Yet what will protect the NHS from increased admissions due to poor lifestyle choices?

There are clearly people whose risk profile means that the vaccine is a very good bet for them. My children and I, for example, are clearly not.

It is extremely difficult to separate the factual truth from the rest at the best of times but it has never been harder than it is now. The outright censorship of views which don't at least unquestioningly back the efficacy of vaccines is cause for concern in itself. Social media fastidiously scrubs itself clean yet the Taliban have a Twitter account when vaccine scepticism is seen as dangerous. The mental gymnastics which are being attempted even to avoid a conversation about the increased instances of heart scares etc in athletes are astonishing. Just have the conversation, be honest about vested interests and don't feel you always have to back 'the team'. It's ok not to have a clue but to try to mitigate your own risk whilst considering others as best you can

I don’t really know what point you think you’re making in regard to obesity. Yes, overweight people are more prone to worse symptoms of Covid, just like they are with a whole range of diseases. Should they lose weight and try to have a healthier lifestyle? Of course they should. Does this have any relevance to vaccines ? No, of course not.

Passive smoking was identified as a major hazard to health. That’s why smoking was banned in public places. Quitting smoking and losing weight have been probably been the two main public health messages of the last 30 years. Vaccines along with sanitation have been the biggest public health success in human history.

Since the pandemic started this board has been refreshingly free of vaccine misinformation. I’ve never asked for messages to be deleted, but I think there’s a very good argument that anti vax nonsense shouldn’t be tolerated.

[i961pie]

I don’t really know what point you think you’re making in regard to obesity. Yes, overweight people are more prone to worse symptoms of Covid, just like they are with a whole range of diseases. Should they lose weight and try to have a healthier lifestyle? Of course they should. Does this have any relevance to vaccines ? No, of course not.

Passive smoking was identified as a major hazard to health. That’s why smoking was banned in public places. Quitting smoking and losing weight have been probably been the two main public health messages of the last 30 years. Vaccines along with sanitation have been the biggest public health success in human history.

Since the pandemic started this board has been refreshingly free of vaccine misinformation. I’ve never asked for messages to be deleted, but I think there’s a very good argument that anti vax nonsense shouldn’t be tolerated.

A wise man once said to me when someone argues a point without any real logic to back up what they are saying then it is pointless carrying on with the argument.

[cher1]

A wise man once said to me when someone argues a point without any real logic to back up what they are saying then it is pointless carrying on with the argument.

Guess you're right really.

The facts remain that vaccination, and particularly boosters, reduce the chance of transmission, infection, hospitalisation and death. And that is backed up with robust clinical evidence from across the world.

[upthemaggies]

Guess you're right really.

The facts remain that vaccination, and particularly boosters, reduce the chance of transmission, infection, hospitalisation and death. And that is backed up with robust clinical evidence from across the world.

Small numbers as it's early days but this is from Reuters.....

Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated -CDC

Dec 10 (Reuters) - Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.


https://www.reuters.com/world/us/mos...dc-2021-12-10/

[cher1]

Our own opinion is of ultimate consequence to our own health. You could go as far to say that it's a life or death decision. I'm basing mine on non-captured medical opinion - the door to which was opened by gut instinct and an inquisitive mind.

What's uncaptured medical opinion? Do you really think that The Lancet, The BMJ et al are publishing studies involving thousands of captured medical professionals? Surely not.

As for opinions, well yes, we could base our opinions on gut instinct, but that's not very reliable is it. As for an inquisitive mind, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why this doesn't extend to including the robust evidence FOR vaccination.

[upthemaggies]

What's uncaptured medical opinion? Do you really think that The Lancet, The BMJ et al are publishing studies involving thousands of captured medical professionals? Surely not.

As for opinions, well yes, we could base our opinions on gut instinct, but that's not very reliable is it. As for an inquisitive mind, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why this doesn't extend to including the robust evidence FOR vaccination.

The pharma industry is unbelievably powerful and corrupt. We've got the Ex-MI6 chief now claiming Britain's science sector has been compromised by 'malign Chinese Communist influence' , which may or may not be true, but does demonstrate the shaky ground we're now all standing on.