Election Year or Fear!

[Geoff Parkstone]

"
I probably know more about it from both sides but we’ll let that one go for the moment."

So is this a confession that your put your kids through fee paying schools?

As for the VAT question, it is indeed a circular argument. The VAT collected would pretty much go directly to the treasury as most of the schools cost base is in the form of non VATable salaries, so little to offset. Also I imagine most own their own premises and so no elected buildings to pay rent on. So in effect this is a tax on choice of spending - but then so is most VAT based on choice of spend. If you buy multiple cars, TV's and most consumer durable there is VAT, so why not private schools?

The counter argument that the driving of people from private schools to state schools simply increaases the pressure on the DOE (or whatever its called) budget is equally sound. Somehow one would need to pigeon hole the extra VAT revenue from private schools and allocate it all to the education budget otherwise state school sector would probably end up worse off with more headcount to educate.

Finally a significant proportion of private school revenue comes from overseas students who cannot be charged VAT, creating inequities in the system. Schools would likely offer more places to overseas students for whom the educational cost "just got better".

So on balance, is VAT on school fees right? Financially it may make little difference but politically its a winner in terms of "having a go at the privileged". Like so many such policies though, it will drag everyone down to the same level, rather than levelling up.

As for me, well I did go to a fee paying boarding school, but curiously, thanks to scholarships, it was ultimately cheaper for my parents to send me away than it would be to keep me at home, feed me and have me go to local state school. My kids went to a fee paying achool which had adopted the national curriculum - the fees didnt get them a better teaching quality, but the environment for learning was so much better (set in country park etc) and the extra curricular studies (arts, drama, country pursuits) represented te added value.

However I have friends who went all in on private education (eg KS' beloved Reigate Grammar) at 30k per year for both kids. Was that "value for money"? Who knows but both my boys graduated with firsts, and neither of their kids did.

Private education is a knotty problem - an invisible earner for the economy offsetting the jealousy of privilege. Trying to attack it with the unsubtle rapier of taxation isnt going to make it go away and smacks of jealousy rather than equality. "I cant afford it, so Ill do my best to make sure you cant either". Adding 20% onto the school fees of the very wealthy wont worry them at all, As ever its the middle ground parents who want to give their children what they perceive to be the best that lose out.

Next thing is they will seek to apply VAT (or IPT) to BUPA insurance payments?? Same argument, equally divisive. the two sectors tend to need each other and can mutually co-exist if it were not for the "if we cant all have it, nobody will" mentality

[Trickytreesreds]

No we were both right and I’m not up for another hair splitting ruck so subject closed

Surely you can’t mean ‘the best’, it just wouldn’t be affordable, and I don’t mean a need to pay fees, I mean staffing and infrastructure. The workforce would need to at least double and that’s just an easy example.

However as you say you know more about it from the state side than I do so I won’t pretend to be in the know

Careful, you're bringing up his former profession again, he doesn't like that mentioning and goes ballastic

[ramAnag]

Careful, you're bringing up his former profession again, he doesn't like that mentioning and goes ballastic

‘Ballastic’? Or even ballistic. As if. Sometimes, like now, it’s relevant…sometimes totally not…that’s all. We’ve been talking education a little today…try and keep up. What’s with this ‘working class’ thing you’ve suddenly started up anyway?

[Andy_Faber]

I probably know more about it from both sides but we’ll let that one go for the moment.

I said a couple of weeks ago that, having had cause to visit a very prestigious local Independent School recently, I was mightily impressed by the facilities on offer and while my motivation wasn’t jealousy, my aspiration was ultimately for all children to have access to such facilities in the same way that, ideally, I want all people to have access to the same quality of cancer treatment/care as the King and his daughter in law.

Given the existing mindset you’re right…that doesn’t seem possible, but the imbalance has, imo, got to begin to be addressed. Why do people send their children to fee paying independent schools? Because they are all too often dissatisfied with the facilities/resources on offer at the state equivalent. Yet, at this moment in time, such an alternative is only available to somewhere between 5-7% of all pupils.

So well in excess of 90% of our children are receiving a relatively sub standard education.

MA asks who is in favour of charging VAT on school fees, possibly as one of the means of addressing the balance.

On the basis that choosing to attend an Independent school is a luxury that relatively few can afford I would come down on the side of being in favour of such taxation.

Then again, on the basis that those who are paying for fee paying schooling are actually reducing the burden on the taxpayer already by removing their children from the system to have them educated - at their own expense - elsewhere…I can see how they would feel unfairly done to.

But then (then) again. Q. Where do the teachers who work in the Independent sector come from? A. They come from the state, because, as far as I know, there are no Independent training colleges or Universities set up to provide the teaching resources explicitly for Independent schools …so they are ‘poached’ /cherry picked from the state.

Of course many young teachers will look at the endless playing fields, beautifully resourced IT suites, school’s own theatre facilities, magnificent science labs etc and think…I’ll have some of that. So three years of partially state funded training (in my day four years on a degree course) goes straight to the independent sector.

Can that be right? I don’t think so and while I’m willing to be swayed either way on the VAT issue…as far as funding future teachers (and doctors and nurses) is concerned I’d make all the qualification costs entirely free on the condition that those who qualified then served a period of at least ten years working within state schools (or the NHS - please delete accordingly). Should they then wish to transfer to either the private health or education sector within that ten year period I’d then make either them, or their new employers, liable for the cost of all the training which enabled their initial qualification.

It might all go some way to restoring a more equitable balance.

Thanks, but wrong on one point, fee paying schools are only USED by 7% of children, they are AVAILABLE to many more, no idea of the percentage but it’s significant. You paint it like an elite privilige and in no way is it (just), I know of many folk far from ‘the elite’ who’ve made financial sacrifices elsewhere in their lives for the sake of their children. Not ignoring the genuinely poor in saying this

Note that the VAT thing is IMO just spite from Labour, it puts exceptional education out of reach of the normal family who just make ends meet to pay fees, it will have no impact on your ‘elite’ who will just lose the 20% in the rounding. And the IFS who you seem to trust have confirmed it will raise bugger all in absolute terms

[ramAnag]

‘Spiteful tax’ and ‘spiteful people’ seems more than a little harsh to me, AF, although I can see both sides of the argument.
It may also, imo, be a tad naive of you to criticise me ‘painting it as an elite privilege’. I’m sure there are a minority of less well healed people in Independent schools, in fact I know there are…however they are likely to have won scholarships which will cover many of the fees and, generally speaking, Independent/Public schools are establishments that cater for the better off 5 ‘ish’ % as the fact that, I think, 27 of our 56 Prime Ministers have come from just two such schools - Eton and Harrow (with 20 coming from the former alone) would indicate.

[ramAnag]

‘Spiteful tax’ and ‘spiteful people’ seems more than a little harsh to me, AF, although I can see both sides of the argument.
It may also, imo, be a tad naive of you to criticise me ‘painting it as an elite privilege’. I’m sure there are a minority of less well healed people in Independent schools, in fact I know there are…however they are likely to have won scholarships which will cover many of the fees and, generally speaking, Independent/Public schools are establishments that cater for the better off 5 ‘ish’ % as the fact that, I think, 27 of our 56 Prime Ministers have come from just two such schools - Eton and Harrow (with 20 coming from the former alone) would indicate.

P.S. Apologies…no idea why this appears twice.

[Andy_Faber]

It may also, imo, be a tad naive of you to criticise me ‘painting it as an elite privilege’. I’m sure there are a minority of less well healed people in Independent schools, in fact I know there are…however they are likely to have won scholarships which will cover many of the fees

This suggests You know less than you think you do, especially around scholarships. In my experience 10% - 40% to maybe ten kids per year and based on merit not need. You might be thinking of bursaries which are up to 100% for the genuinely poor, and maybe a victim of the proposed VAT change, who knows

[ramAnag]

This suggests You know less than you think you do, especially around scholarships. In my experience 10% - 40% to maybe ten kids per year and based on merit not need. You might be thinking of bursaries which are up to 100% for the genuinely poor, and maybe a victim of the proposed VAT change, who knows

Again quite possible and it is fair to say that my experience is certainly ‘dated’…however it is something of a truism, imo, that the Independent/Private/‘Public’ school sector is primarily aimed at the well off. Beyond that we’ll have to agree to differ.

[Andy_Faber]

Again quite possible and it is fair to say that my experience is certainly ‘dated’…however it is something of a truism, imo, that the Independent/Private/‘Public’ school sector is primarily aimed at the well off. Beyond that we’ll have to agree to differ.

…but the tax change will only hurt those middle earners grafting to improve their kids’ chances, it’s an irrelevance to the swans milk-quaffing Quentins of this world. Still it will appeal to those who only think of the ‘headline - a ‘populist’ policy, who’d have thought it of Labour?

Criticisms aimed at the policy not you btw, and I think TTR’s missed the point that we are talking about education because that’s just the current subject matter

[Trickytreesreds]

…but the tax change will only hurt those middle earners grafting to improve their kids’ chances, it’s an irrelevance to the swans milk-quaffing Quentins of this world. Still it will appeal to those who only think of the ‘headline - a ‘populist’ policy, who’d have thought it of Labour?

Criticisms aimed at the policy not you btw, and I think TTR’s missed the point that we are talking about education because that’s just the current subject matter

I was actually taking the piss, lets not fall out the boat.

Talking of taking the piss, I do love the current Tory panic over reform. They even have Johnson at it, though he forgot to engage his brain before hurling the insult. Oh the irony at that attack.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nigel-fara...122500050.html