OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[AngryRam]

Tricky, you're an intelligent contributor on occasions but, you've got one quote from Gorbachev that you rely on all the time and to accuse Swale of 'arrogance' only to then tell him to 'leave' because he doesn't agree with you and the 37% - not, and nothing like, half the country, - is pure bollux don't you think?
I happen to be in Germany at the moment. I've apologised three times today for the perceived attitude of my countrymen, something that I'm actually embarrassed by, but guess what...the Germans are still being pleasant and 'cool' about it all and still carry a stereotype about the English being regarded as 'polite and tolerant', if a little mad where Brexit is concerned. 'We shall see what happens' seems as far as they go. Imagine they've never met the likes of 'non electable Nigel' or they'd begin to think differently...as for us non-Brexiteers being repeatedly told to leave...if that's actually what you think we really do have a problem and perhaps you'd do well to remember that, even with the 'protest vote' factor, 37% is still a minority.

You don't need to apologise for us.. Get over this 37% thing, do you assume that those who did not vote, would have all voted remain?

[ramAnag]

I wasn't apologising for you Angry...you thought things through and reached a conclusion that, although I disagree with, I recognise as being at least as valid to mine. I was apologising for the fact that we British are disuniting Europe at a time when such unity is, imo, crucial and for the proportion of ****wits who hijacked the referendum making it all about racism and immigration. The Germans I have spoken to 'get' the last bit, they understand our objection to a Brussels based bureaucracy too, but are still bewildered at us leaving.

No reason to 'get over the 37% thing'. Of course I don't assume all those who didn't vote would have voted 'Remain' but when 63% of 'the people' don't vote for something how does that provide a mandate to do it?

[Manofpride]

Remainers not bitter!!!

[ramAnag]

Remainers not bitter!!!

Actually I said...'I'm' not bitter MoP. Guess some may be, but when you consider that, in the course of this debate, the reaction of some 'Leavers' to both Swale and I has been 'if you don't like it...**** off to the EU' or... 'go back to the beloved motherland', it does make one wonder which side is being 'bitter'.
Don't know about Swale but I'm thoroughly Northern European in appearance, was brought up in Lancashire and have lived in Derby or Derbyshire since 1972 so being told to 'go back to the beloved motherland' was too daft to be hurtful. For those whose skin is a different colour, or others who settled in this country years ago such comments could be considered extremely, divisive and 'bitter' and unfortunately such thoughts represent the tip of an 'ice-berg' of prejudiced opinion which has been given 'respectability' by this, imo, ill conceived referendum.

P.S. Didn't you laugh at the prospect of Theresa May being PM too?

[swaledale]

Remainers not bitter!!!

Actually we are not bitter, or at least I'm not. I'm going to enjoy months or years as it dawns on those who voted Brexit that they haven't quite got what they thought they voted for!

[Trickytreesreds]

I wasn't apologising for you Angry...you thought things through and reached a conclusion that, although I disagree with, I recognise as being at least as valid to mine. I was apologising for the fact that we British are disuniting Europe at a time when such unity is, imo, crucial and for the proportion of ****wits who hijacked the referendum making it all about racism and immigration. The Germans I have spoken to 'get' the last bit, they understand our objection to a Brussels based bureaucracy too, but are still bewildered at us leaving.

No reason to 'get over the 37% thing'. Of course I don't assume all those who didn't vote would have voted 'Remain' but when 63% of 'the people' don't vote for something how does that provide a mandate to do it?

RAN, I don't quite agree that you can blame us for disjointing Europe. The discontent goes way beyond the UK. The Dutch/French/Danes/Swedes/Italians/Greeks have more than enough discontented to amount to serious alarm bells in Brussels. They aren't upset at us, they are upset as the way the EU is run and its boorish, arrogant attitude to what it believes its citizens need.
Mass youth unemployment/mass people movements both EU and non EU/ national debts non of these are our doing.
I too was in Germany last year, with a girl friend. I mixed with the locals in Bavaria and got a very mixed view point. They like it that Germany is top dog in the EU, but didn't seem to care about Greece's/Spain's/Portugal's debts. They were starting to see the migrant issue take effect. Whilst showing compassion, it was unnerving a lot of people. (I went into Nurenburg, could really feel it there).
They were worried about the surge of the far right. It has never gone away in Germany and Bavaria is the former jewel of Nazism.
Nationalistically, yes the Germans love the idea of a big European family. I wasn't convinced though, that they would feel the same way, if they was in Greece's shoes.
I know it has shocked them at us leaving, but the EU had a real chance to show reform and understanding.They blew it and sent Cameron home, with a smacked arse and a bag of marbles in compensation.
Their credibility went up in smoke and I still believe we are not the last to leave. Even the new members like Hungary and Poland, whilst being happy at the moment to get the money. Watch the reaction as the EU tries to tighten its grip and impose things like enforced refugees on them.
Still a smoldering pyre and though a lot of you don't like it. I for one am glad we are out.
Give it a chance and believe. We aren't stupid and now have the chance to boost ourselves for ourselves. We don't need baby sitting.
India, China, Japan Australia and Canada have already committed informally to forming strong trade deals with the UK.

[swaledale]

Interesting that an analysis of those voting Brexit has revealed that its not linked to wealth or social class, indeed thats a poor indicator.

By contrast, the probability of voting Brexit rises from around 20% for those most opposed to the death penalty to 70% for those most in favour. Wealthy people who back capital punishment back Brexit. Poor folk who oppose the death penalty support Remain.

"They tended to value things like order, stability and safety against things like openness, modernity and other social-liberal values that were more popular among Remain voters. Often it's about harking back to the past - sometimes a feeling that they don't belong to the present."

Lets hope those socially conservative. living in the past folks see the fruits of what they think they voted for!

[macstheman]

As someone who voted remain but has since wavered and am beginning to encompass the idea of Brexit I have to say that I am quite excited to see how we adapt to the changing circumstances. We are supposed to be a nation that is flexible and has always absorbed changing times and situations. It will be the younger element, largely those that desperately wanted to remain, that will be charged to make Brexit a success, watching them take that responsibility on board, as our forbears did during and with the aftermath of 2 wars and the depression of the thirties is exciting. I have every confidence that they will take us forward and make a resounding success of the future.

[ramAnag]

Not sure I feel 'excited' macstm, but I genuinely hope you're right.
Is having 264 replies a new record? At least something good has come out of it all.

[Trickytreesreds]

I am going to add one more point to this, from a different angle.
Folks on the remain side, have been banging a drum that being in the EU is better.
Not quite sure how they arrive at that, for reasons I have already covered.
However consider this. Have the REMAINERS factored in what could and probably will happen, if other countries go over the edge?
We all know about Greece as a basket case economically. We all pay to bail her out.
How about this little nugget. ITALY- COMING OUT OF THE EURO?

They are stuck in a spiral of debt and zero growth. There are now strong moves afoot to exit the euro. If they do it, guaranteed Greece follows. Who next?

Once the currency unravels, the whole "project" is a house of cards.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/11/italy-must-chose-between-the-euro-and-its-own-economic-survival/

I'd sooner not be dragged into that.

[macstheman]

Assuming Brexit goes through then there will be a lot of changes, both politically, economically, within industry both at local and national level, in the service industries etc etc. In addition, bearing in mind the impact we are already seeing on the Labour and Conservative Parties, the long term effect on party politics could be quite illuminating. So, yes, overall I reckon we are in for quite entertaining if not exciting times. Let's face it without the Rams to occupy our minds this thread has helped 'pass the time' so that's the first positive of Brexit!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Assuming Brexit goes through then there will be a lot of changes, both politically, economically, within industry both at local and national level, in the service industries etc etc. In addition, bearing in mind the impact we are already seeing on the Labour and Conservative Parties, the long term effect on party politics could be quite illuminating. So, yes, overall I reckon we are in for quite entertaining if not exciting times. Let's face it without the Rams to occupy our minds this thread has helped 'pass the time' so that's the first positive of Brexit!!

Had this sent me. If true, things are already changing.

Boeing are relocating their entire European Operation to London.
Aston Martin plan to build a state of the art car plant in Wales.
TVR are bringing their car factory to South Wales.
AVON is bringing its base to the UK.
And Jaguar Land Rover just built a new massive special vehicles ops in Ryton Coventry .. Replacing most of the jobs lost to Peugeot closing and being relocated to Slovakia courtesy of the EU paying for the factory.
Since most of this is not making main news, we will post it in a public space and make sure its known instead

[swaledale]

Assuming Brexit goes through then there will be a lot of changes, both politically, economically, within industry both at local and national level, in the service industries etc etc. In addition, bearing in mind the impact we are already seeing on the Labour and Conservative Parties, the long term effect on party politics could be quite illuminating. So, yes, overall I reckon we are in for quite entertaining if not exciting times. Let's face it without the Rams to occupy our minds this thread has helped 'pass the time' so that's the first positive of Brexit!!

I would agree, we are in for a very interesting time, although I would add that a Confuscius curse was "may you live in interesting times"!

Tricky nobody is saying that the world trade will come to a stop, those who like making money will find ways to do it irrespective of whether we are in or out - those announcements are fine - they haven't happened because of Brexit though they were in the pipeline already so not sure how that supports your line.

Nor will companies immediately shift production or service centres out of the UK to of the EU, that will happen as the pictur ebecomes clearer. What of course you won't know is what investment won't happen because we are not in the EU and whether that investment is less than from outside the EU, which was happening anyway, the best that can be said is that we are likely to see a net loss.

of course the proof of the pudding will be the economy and the immediate signs are not that positive, which again begs the question, when those who voted out because they thought more money would go in the NHS and the number of immigrants in their area does not decrease and their life does not improve, will the thought of being a "free independent country" satisfy them?

We are weren't and aren't in the Euro so our liability for countries that do exit is very limited. Have we thought about what would happen if it all implodes? yes we would be able to influence and shape its future - things change they evolve, generally it s better to be in a position to influence that change but hey ho.

Not sure why your so keen for the Eu to collapse, the consequences of that both economically and politically may not be something anyone would want to happen. Be careful what you wish for!

[Trickytreesreds]

I would agree, we are in for a very interesting time, although I would add that a Confuscius curse was "may you live in interesting times"!

Tricky nobody is saying that the world trade will come to a stop, those who like making money will find ways to do it irrespective of whether we are in or out - those announcements are fine - they haven't happened because of Brexit though they were in the pipeline already so not sure how that supports your line.

Nor will companies immediately shift production or service centres out of the UK to of the EU, that will happen as the pictur ebecomes clearer. What of course you won't know is what investment won't happen because we are not in the EU and whether that investment is less than from outside the EU, which was happening anyway, the best that can be said is that we are likely to see a net loss.

of course the proof of the pudding will be the economy and the immediate signs are not that positive, which again begs the question, when those who voted out because they thought more money would go in the NHS and the number of immigrants in their area does not decrease and their life does not improve, will the thought of being a "free independent country" satisfy them?

We are weren't and aren't in the Euro so our liability for countries that do exit is very limited. Have we thought about what would happen if it all implodes? yes we would be able to influence and shape its future - things change they evolve, generally it s better to be in a position to influence that change but hey ho.

Not sure why your so keen for the Eu to collapse, the consequences of that both economically and politically may not be something anyone would want to happen. Be careful what you wish for!

Swale, not being indicative but I fail to comprehend how folks don't get what's been done to them?
We joined an economic union, nothing more. We even had a referendum to ask if that's what we want.
Who,why,when,how decided it was to become a union of states under one political government?
Did you vote for this or did I?
I have nothing wrong with being European. I just fail to comprehend how some coke head in BRUSSELS DECIDES WHATS RIGHT FOR ME?
I endorse free trade and relations. I do not endorse unregulated free movement and laws imposed on me.
All I ask for is a clean slate and clarity.
If I said to you the EU is racist, would you agree?
It discriminates against the rest of the world, but allows any trash to travel within its borders unhindered.
We obviously are not going to agree on this. I have my mind set and you have yours. The extreme of this is Corbyns anarchists and the BNP.
What I object to, is being banded with the BNP for objecting for free movement.
This country is great. Why does it need some failed politicians in the EU(because that is what they are) to tell it how to conduct its business.
I'll take my chances thank you. The next interviewee I have in front of me in tears, that struggles to get a job because of cheap labour. I'll think of our tussles.

[AngryRam]

of course the proof of the pudding will be the economy and the immediate signs are not that positive, which again begs the question, when those who voted out because they thought more money would go in the NHS and the number of immigrants in their area does not decrease and their life does not improve, will the thought of being a "free independent country" satisfy them?

!

We are not even out yet.. We still pay in until the time comes when we leave. Give the country a chance eh.. The Pound is lower at the moment yes, but it has been lower when we have been in the EU. Things will recover.
Your best argument is to stay in and TRY to change things from within. Not good enough.
You seem to forget that it was not that long ago that the EU nearly collapsed financially. Everything is cyclical..
You seem to KNOW people's life's will not improve. Have you done the lottery this week?
You are starting to ramble as well, I have to read your posts 3 or 4 times as they are becoming disjointed. Ring the NHS they have lots of new shrinks now they have the extra 350 million. Get a appointment.