OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

MA: you mean tomatoes and cucumbers don't excrete ammonia or emit N2O? I'm shocked ����

Following a Court case brought by environmental groups against the government, it became Law that nitrogen levels had to reduce by a certain amount by 2030, That case was a few years back. So far, the cabinet has failed to come up with a plan on how to do that which will get through either house.

The thoughts they have cover the following areas...

Reducing the number of livestock by up to 50%. They've allocated something like €25Bn to buy out farmers, preferably on a voluntary basis but if the volunteers don't add up to enough to reach the required reduction, they will use compulsory purchase. Reminder to TTR, there was, and is, no mention of cutting back on arable farming and greenhousery. In fact, some farmers are already moving from livestock to biological arable farming and getting subsidies to make the change.

Industrial concerns that belch out too much nitrogen and CO2 will be instructed to cut back on emissions. This morning, in anticipation of having to clean up their act, Tata Steel asked the government for a €1Bn subsidy in order to carry out the necessary changes......

The government has set a target of 100,000 new homes a year being built between now and 2040. The problem is that the heavy machinery used in building emits a lot of nitrogen through the burning of the diesel fuel they consume. Something like 4 out of every 10 building applications get turned down because the area already has too high a nitrogen level. The housing target won't get met.

[Trickytreesreds]

Actually I have, I worked a lot in East Anglia and its absolutely not a replica of Warsaw! I worked and stayed in Thetford, which has had a lot of eastern EU migration, its also has a lot of ex Londoners which is another story. But it in no way resembles and eastern european country, in fact I'd say it has a more varied retail and service sector than one would expect for a rural town and a lively economy supporting these.

I've worked in Boston too, where the anti Eu feeling is high. Yet in both those places these migrants came and worked in industry and agriculture, doing jobs that are equally available to the locals. Funny I talk to people in those areas now and they are struggling for labour! Such that many are/have reduced their business activity.

I know Great Yarmouth and its a typical run down seaside resort, on the way back up thanks to renewable energy industry. Parts of it, like Blackpool etc but again it aint especially dangerous and I've walked around it very late at night.

This guff about overwhelming services and homes is pure propaganda, EU migration has been a scapegoat for over a decade of under investment by this government in the NHS, in schools and certainly in housing, especially social/council housing is a fact. They have been happy to take the tax revenue paid by these immigrants, but haven't invested it in services.

But as I said and you have ignored, probably because it doesn't suit your anti foreigner play book, immigration has merely replaced a negative birth rate, if the level of births to residents had continued at the rate it was in the 1950's and 1960's, there would still be the issue of a growing population requiring services and homes.

Sorry the issue of overseas students supposedly overstaying their visas and staying here is a right wing myth, the percentage that do is less than 1% and the income they generate through university fees and helping to make this country a world leader in education and research is valuable. Still I guess we should cut that off if it means we can avoid a few thousand extra residents.

If a country's birth rate is below that required for replacement and the UK's is, then immigration is the only way to keep a balance between the older people (thats you and me) and younger people who do the jobs and pay the tax which supports pensions, health and personal care etc. Many studies have shown that migrants contribute positively economically, culturally and intellectually to this country.

All of us and that includes you and the millions who voted for Brexit, have and still do benefit from migration and I doubt many would want to experience living in a place that was stagnating economically (though ironically you are getting that at the moment).

Its a deliberate policy on the part of the Conservatives to run down public services, to create an economy that works for their very rich backers, it has suited them to blame the EU, to blame migrants.

As for New Zealands approach, well it will be interesting to see how they fare over the next decade, with birth rates plummeting around the world, I'm guessing they may well be revising their approach. I take it you would also welcome their approach to lockdowns? Its a totally different country to the Uk at the arse end of the world and a different economic base.

Your correct in the unplanned approach and lack of government investment to meet rising demand, but thats a government failing (of which there are many) it isn't going to be solved by Brexit and it isn't going to be solved by worsening the economic situation in the UK which Brexit is doing and will continue to do until we renegotiate more parts of the trade deal.

Again most of what you rail against, is either untrue, over exaggerated, or not down to the EU, but down to a failure of government. None of which Brexit will solve.

I aint doing a war and peace.
Which part of controlled and organised migration don't you understand?

[swaledale]

Your habit of ‘a recent survey said’ without provenance, or even just stating unfounded ‘facts’ is actually worse than Tricky’s scattergunning - at least tricky offers some ‘evidence’ to be refuted. All you’re doing is gaslighting, Just a suggestion which might even help reinforce your POV

Says you, who repeatedly uses anecdotal "evidence" to support a point your making! I mean even "good old" Lea Anderson is using this with his "I know people using foodbanks who I see in McDonalds 2 or 3 times a week!". Which begs the question how doe she know this? is he in McDonalds 2 or 3 times a week?

If your unable to undertake a spot of research to verify that which i refer to, I'm afraid that's your problem not mine.

You chose the wrong example here as well, seeing as GP had made a unsubstantiated comments in two posts (a habit of his) which I gave a chapter and verse response to and got zip, zero acknowledgement.

So in essence, your accusing me of doing something that you, GP and Tricky do all the time. If you think what I state as facts aren't facts, then do your research and prove it.

As for Tricky, whilst there is a grain of truth in some of what he says, most is the repetition of well worn phrases, fake news and hyperbole - as in East Anglia where towns have become replicas of Warsaw - that its my judgement that any person of reasonable intelligence, who takes notice of current affairs and who was above believing things that align with their own prejudices, would easily identify that which was false, counter factual or just plain xenophobic clap trap.

As rA has commentd, one of the issues facing democracy seems to be a dearth of understanding what is real and what is fake.
know what he says is largely fiction or indeed gross exaggeration

[MadAmster]

I aint doing a war and peace.
Which part of controlled and organised migration don't you understand?

Which part of no restrictions on arable farming and greenhousery don't you understand? It's only the livestock farming that will get hit, if they ever get their plans through Parliament.

There is a different issue for arable farmers Since March 1st 2023 they aren't allowed, by the EU, to "muckspread" within 3 metres of an irrigation channel as that is affecting the quality of the water supply.

Meanwhile, back in Brexitland, millions of gallons/tons of raw sewage are being pumped into rivers and the sea because, depending on who you believe, the water companies say they can't handle it all and Joe Public and the Environmentalists (good name for a band?) say it's because it saves them money and helps bump up shareholder dividends.

Personally, Joe Public seems more believable.

[swaledale]

"...and yes theyc an apply (online only) for a Local Authority voter ID card, but are much less likely to do so."

Why are they less likely to? This suggests you feel that they can't be arsed to make the effort to vote? I don't understand your inferred prejudice here that minority groups are less likely to do what is necessary to vote. Next you'll be saying that eg Indians are less likely to want to walk to the polling station so that's unfair?

I do wish for once you could actually alter your perspective from the educated older male white person and perhaps consider what its like being somebody else!

I have a suggestion for you, in your spare time do a little bit of research, electoral reform society, Joseph Rowntree Trust would be good places to start.

But here are some pointers, les educational attainment, being poor and not having access to IT, not being tech savvy, leading lives that are actually a constant struggle, holding down 2 or more low paid jobs and actually being fully occupied just making a living.

I actually didn't say anything about it being unfair, what I did say was that first the government is spending millions on resolving a problem that doesn't exist. Second, it will create barriers to younger people, those who are poor and ethnic minorities to voting. Thirdly it seems designed, as per the examples I gave to make it easier for older voters than younger voters for no practical reason, other than to restrict those less likely to vote Tory from doing so.

[swaledale]

I aint doing a war and peace.
Which part of controlled and organised migration don't you understand?

So in essence what it boils down to is your belly aching about free movement within countries? Yet the issues you raised are either grossly exaggerated, false or due not to migration, but a failure of government to deliver the investment required?

Simple question, IF the population growth had been down to the birth rate of current residents - which after all would lead to increased demand for services and homes, what would your solution be then?

And there in lies your problem and indeed the problem of the Brexit voter - the issues are complex and there are many reasons as to why we ae where we are. Unfortunately you want a simple scapegoat, a simple answer and some body else to deliver this because you and the others cannot be arsed!

You ignore these complexities because you don't understand. And you think Politicians are stupid and useless!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Swale

"But here are some pointers, les educational attainment, being poor and not having access to IT, not being tech savvy, leading lives that are actually a constant struggle, holding down 2 or more low paid jobs and actually being fully occupied just making a living."



I do wish you would stop lecturing as if you are an ex teacher (no offence rA)

My point is that your perspective on minorites is absurd, lets reiterate

"But here are some pointers, les educational attainment, being poor and not having access to IT, not being tech savvy, leading lives that are actually a constant struggle, holding down 2 or more low paid jobs and actually being fully occupied just making a living."

Let us look at this in more detail. You are suggesting that all non whites, gays and disabled people (the most commonly defined "minorities") all conform to your stereotype? That is a disgusting allegation and worthy of only contempt. It ignores the many minority group members who are well educated, savvy, hard working and indeed well off individuals.

If you had said "poor people" I wouldn't have disagreed that this could be an unnecessary cost burden, but no, you have to jump on the "minorities" crusade and in so doing you adopt the typical white middle class stereotypes that you so despise in others. Shocking.

Ask yourself, would Mo Ibrahim, Elton John or Shani Dhanda - to pick one example from each minority community as defined by race, ***uality or disability - fit your stereotype? Or are you just a typical socialist trying to defend your views by branding and stygmatising others?

For sure some members of these minority communities may fit your model, but then so might some white hetero***ual able bodied students, unemployed and pensioners.

May I suggest you get back in your box and stop insulting the many hard working and successful members of minority groups with your own self serving rhetoric.of ill education etc as per your utterly vile prior post

[swaledale]

Swale

"But here are some pointers, les educational attainment, being poor and not having access to IT, not being tech savvy, leading lives that are actually a constant struggle, holding down 2 or more low paid jobs and actually being fully occupied just making a living."



I do wish you would stop lecturing as if you are an ex teacher (no offence rA)

My point is that your perspective on minorites is absurd, lets reiterate

"But here are some pointers, les educational attainment, being poor and not having access to IT, not being tech savvy, leading lives that are actually a constant struggle, holding down 2 or more low paid jobs and actually being fully occupied just making a living."

Let us look at this in more detail. You are suggesting that all non whites, gays and disabled people (the most commonly defined "minorities") all conform to your stereotype? That is a disgusting allegation and worthy of only contempt. It ignores the many minority group members who are well educated, savvy, hard working and indeed well off individuals.

If you had said "poor people" I wouldn't have disagreed that this could be an unnecessary cost burden, but no, you have to jump on the "minorities" crusade and in so doing you adopt the typical white middle class stereotypes that you so despise in others. Shocking.

Ask yourself, would Mo Ibrahim, Elton John or Shani Dhanda - to pick one example from each minority community as defined by race, ***uality or disability - fit your stereotype? Or are you just a typical socialist trying to defend your views by branding and stygmatising others?

For sure some members of these minority communities may fit your model, but then so might some white hetero***ual able bodied students, unemployed and pensioners.

May I suggest you get back in your box and stop insulting the many hard working and successful members of minority groups with your own self serving rhetoric.of ill education etc as per your utterly vile prior post

Its difficult to tell whether your being serious or just being an arse for the sake of it here! I suspect the latter, seeing as you seem to deliberately misinterpret what I say for the sake of mischief making. This is a common pattern with you and one that rA has commented on many times.

Firstly I pointed you in the direction of sources which might enlighten you. You'd look a lot less of prat if you did that.

Secondly - you have taken my saying ethnic minorities, to mean ALL MINORITIES, when actually I said no such thing. It seems your prejudice has addled your thinking there. So no I wasn't suggesting all the commonly defined minorities as you put it, fit a stereotype - by the way just for clarity it isn't MY stereotype, its something you have somehow come up.

Not sure why you didn't bring in Suella Braverman and Richie Sunak here to try and support your claim that I was being stereotypical about ethnic minorities! I mean please, quoting those that are exceptions to the majority when it is a fact that ethnic minority groups are massively disadvantaged is really pathetic nd I know you know that to be the case.

"For sure some members of these minority communities may fit your model, but then so might some white hetero***ual able bodied students, unemployed and pensioners."

Absolutely, please tell me where I said that wasn't the case? However, what is fact, backed up by research by respected organisations, is that the voter ID proposals will negatively impact and deter from voting a large number of people those groups which I mentioned.

By the way, I did actually point out that young people of any race or description would be negatively impacted, so clearly you haven't actually read what I said properly.

Again, you seemed to be thinking its because people are poor and can't afford to, its not necessarily that either, its they tend not to have these things or easy access and thats for a variety of reasons. Again if you were really interested, rather than posting some faux outrage in a the fashion of some of the more idiotic right wing media commentators, you'd have done a little research.

I suspect however, that far from this being a serious response, you are in fact just posting provocative bull**** for your own amusement.

There comes a point and we have been here before when one realises that a person being an arse is generally and arse. When they repeatedly fail to acknowledge previous posts where evidence has been provided that what they said was wrong, then one knows serious debate is not their game.

So toodle pip Sir, its been a blast.

[Andy_Faber]

Its difficult to tell whether your being serious or just being an arse for the sake of it here! I suspect the latter, seeing as you seem to deliberately misinterpret what I say for the sake of mischief making. This is a common pattern with you and one that rA has commented on many times.

Firstly I pointed you in the direction of sources which might enlighten you. You'd look a lot less of prat if you did that.

Secondly - you have taken my saying ethnic minorities, to mean ALL MINORITIES, when actually I said no such thing. It seems your prejudice has addled your thinking there. So no I wasn't suggesting all the commonly defined minorities as you put it, fit a stereotype - by the way just for clarity it isn't MY stereotype, its something you have somehow come up.

Not sure why you didn't bring in Suella Braverman and Richie Sunak here to try and support your claim that I was being stereotypical about ethnic minorities! I mean please, quoting those that are exceptions to the majority when it is a fact that ethnic minority groups are massively disadvantaged is really pathetic nd I know you know that to be the case.

"For sure some members of these minority communities may fit your model, but then so might some white hetero***ual able bodied students, unemployed and pensioners."

Absolutely, please tell me where I said that wasn't the case? However, what is fact, backed up by research by respected organisations, is that the voter ID proposals will negatively impact and deter from voting a large number of people those groups which I mentioned.

By the way, I did actually point out that young people of any race or description would be negatively impacted, so clearly you haven't actually read what I said properly.

Again, you seemed to be thinking its because people are poor and can't afford to, its not necessarily that either, its they tend not to have these things or easy access and thats for a variety of reasons. Again if you were really interested, rather than posting some faux outrage in a the fashion of some of the more idiotic right wing media commentators, you'd have done a little research.

I suspect however, that far from this being a serious response, you are in fact just posting provocative bull**** for your own amusement.

There comes a point and we have been here before when one realises that a person being an arse is generally and arse. When they repeatedly fail to acknowledge previous posts where evidence has been provided that what they said was wrong, then one knows serious debate is not their game.

So toodle pip Sir, its been a blast.

You’d better toddle pip me too because I pretty much agree with the whole of GPs post.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Its difficult to tell whether your being serious or just being an arse for the sake of it here! I suspect the latter, seeing as you seem to deliberately misinterpret what I say for the sake of mischief making. This is a common pattern with you and one that rA has commented on many times.

Firstly I pointed you in the direction of sources which might enlighten you. You'd look a lot less of prat if you did that.

Secondly - you have taken my saying ethnic minorities, to mean ALL MINORITIES, when actually I said no such thing. It seems your prejudice has addled your thinking there. So no I wasn't suggesting all the commonly defined minorities as you put it, fit a stereotype - by the way just for clarity it isn't MY stereotype, its something you have somehow come up.

Not sure why you didn't bring in Suella Braverman and Richie Sunak here to try and support your claim that I was being stereotypical about ethnic minorities! I mean please, quoting those that are exceptions to the majority when it is a fact that ethnic minority groups are massively disadvantaged is really pathetic nd I know you know that to be the case.

"For sure some members of these minority communities may fit your model, but then so might some white hetero***ual able bodied students, unemployed and pensioners."

Absolutely, please tell me where I said that wasn't the case? However, what is fact, backed up by research by respected organisations, is that the voter ID proposals will negatively impact and deter from voting a large number of people those groups which I mentioned.

By the way, I did actually point out that young people of any race or description would be negatively impacted, so clearly you haven't actually read what I said properly.

Again, you seemed to be thinking its because people are poor and can't afford to, its not necessarily that either, its they tend not to have these things or easy access and thats for a variety of reasons. Again if you were really interested, rather than posting some faux outrage in a the fashion of some of the more idiotic right wing media commentators, you'd have done a little research.

I suspect however, that far from this being a serious response, you are in fact just posting provocative bull**** for your own amusement.

There comes a point and we have been here before when one realises that a person being an arse is generally and arse. When they repeatedly fail to acknowledge previous posts where evidence has been provided that what they said was wrong, then one knows serious debate is not their game.

So toodle pip Sir, its been a blast.

"I suspect however, that far from this being a serious response, you are in fact just posting provocative bull**** for your own amusement."

Takes one to know one

Toodle pip

[Geoff Parkstone]

You’d better toddle pip me too because I pretty much agree with the whole of GPs post.

OOOH do I have a rear gunner too now

[ramAnag]

GP ‘being an arse for the sake of it’ and just ‘posting provocative bull****’? Surely not.
Sorry GP...yes I do take (slight) ‘offence’ at your ‘ex teacher’ comment...but then I was meant to wasn’t I...it’s just another example of you having too much time on your hands and being...what’s the word? Oh yes, that’s it, ‘provocative’.

At the risk of provoking another infantile ‘ratatat’, ‘rear gunner’ attack from the usual two (or three) suspects I think it’s clear that Swale isn’t demonstrating prejudice against certain groups...something I’m sure you’re equally well aware of.

However, if you ever left the ivory tower of your counting house and had actually worked amongst the poorer ‘strata’ of society - as I have and Swale too maybe (I wouldn’t know) - you’d understand that those who are disadvantaged by any one of or a combination of poverty, limited communication skills, lack of confidence, inadequate parenting, physical or mental disability etc are amongst the least likely to search out the entitlements that you and I might take for granted.

Seems to me that’s all Swale is intimating...also seems to me that you’re bright enough to realise that, but have decided instead to revert to your unhelpful and petulant self and go on some sort of juvenile point scoring mission. Maybe it’s the ‘ex teacher’ in me but...it does you no favours.

[swaledale]

You’d better toddle pip me too because I pretty much agree with the whole of GPs post.

Two points - if you actually being serious when you say you agree with GP's post, then I have over estimated your ability to comprehend matters.

It is clearly a piss taking' **** stirring post written for amusement, nobody with an average level of sentience would take it seriously. I mean I don't doubt that underlying the "outraged from Croydon" are GP's true view of life, but its a pastiche worthy of private Eye!

I mean I expect that sort of bizarre tosh from Tricky, who does mean it seriously, because bless him, his comprehension skills aren't that sophisticated.

So you have made yourself look very silly!!

[swaledale]

GP ‘being an arse for the sake of it’ and just ‘posting provocative bull****’? Surely not.
Sorry GP...yes I do take (slight) ‘offence’ at your ‘ex teacher’ comment...but then I was meant to wasn’t I...it’s just another example of you having too much time on your hands and being...what’s the word? Oh yes, that’s it, ‘provocative’.

At the risk of provoking another infantile ‘ratatat’, ‘rear gunner’ attack from the usual two (or three) suspects I think it’s clear that Swale isn’t demonstrating prejudice against certain groups...something I’m sure you’re equally well aware of.

However, if you ever left the ivory tower of your counting house and had actually worked amongst the poorer ‘strata’ of society - as I have and Swale too maybe (I wouldn’t know) - you’d understand that those who are disadvantaged by any one of or a combination of poverty, limited communication skills, lack of confidence, inadequate parenting, physical or mental disability etc are amongst the least likely to search out the entitlements that you and I might take for granted.

Seems to me that’s all Swale is intimating...also seems to me that you’re bright enough to realise that, but have decided instead to revert to your unhelpful and petulant self and go on some sort of juvenile point scoring mission. Maybe it’s the ‘ex teacher’ in me but...it does you no favours.

And that sums up that one might as well ignore the input of GP TTR and AF, they clearly aren't capable of normal rational debate. If that's representative of even a significant proportion of the electorate (which I suspect it is) we are doomed.

[swaledale]

"I suspect however, that far from this being a serious response, you are in fact just posting provocative bull**** for your own amusement."

Takes one to know one

Toodle pip

Well at least its clear that it isn't worth having a rational debate with you, which is fine, saves me wasting my time.