OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[AngryRam]

Which is why I'm not claiming it!

I have clearly said, and others have (in higher places that football forums), that both sides failed in presenting a well structured campaign. Farage famously admitted this the day after on the £350m quote, Anna Soubry (for example) has since admitted the remain campaign completely failed to address the immigration question.

The UK people were horribly let down by the quality of the debates and the information made available - but that affected both sides equally. Your words, not mine.

And I now don't think it is acceptable to just say 'oh well, it was all a bit flaky but let's go with it anyway'. This point has no relevance what so ever on whether we should remain or stay, it is to do with the quality of information on which the decision was made and the consequences that will now kick in as a result of that.

Angry says he is happy to exit if that means he needs to get a visa to go to France. No problem, his view and I don't challenge that, what I challenge is that nobody ever suggested that would be where we would end up. The constant argument in the campaign was the EU would find it difficult to deny us free movement of people on account of us being the 5th largest economy in the world / more important than the rest / just damned fine chaps. If we are now in a place where we need visas to get off this island into Europe that is different to what many thought they were voting for. I therefore think it would be only fair to go back to the people and confirm what that 'simple Yes/No question' got us to in terms of concrete actions.

That is the 'contract' that Adi refers to and in any other business deal the initial decision would be supported by a more detailed proposal which can then, should it not be suitable, be rejected or amended. It happens when I buy a Sky box, mobile phone, even a book from Amazon - seems similarly fair that we consider it as an option for the future of our country.

But the Visa argument is extreme, has anyone said that we will need these?
I don't see travel in Europe being any different to what we experience now. Apart from we will have to use the non-eu channel.. It might be quicker.
To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means.. Trade, immigration, phone tariffs, milk and eggs the whole nine yards. Surely once we know that it would be impossible to go back and say.. Nah, sorry Mr Brussels we've changed our minds.
Would it ever be possible to get to that point anyway? We would be a laughing stock globally.
The world is a dangerous place now.. Europe is not managing that.. I'm all for pulling the drawbridge up (a little).. INCOMING
Welcome to the debate by the way.. Where have you been?

[ramAnag]

'To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means'...Glory, Hallelujah...at last one of our leading Brexiteers sees the light and recognises what some of us have been saying for the last two months or more.

That is the point, people didn't know what Brexit meant when they voted back in June and as for becoming a 'laughing stock globally'...our Olympic achievements aside isn't that what we're in danger of becoming anyway...that and an isolated irrelevance.

Someone, probably BaaLocks, earlier today described the Brexit process as like 'unscrambling eggs'. Brilliant analogy imo...a mission impossible perhaps, that Mrs. May has cleverly handed over to 'Leave' minded ministers. Let's see how they get on.

Tricky, htf can anyone be an 'ex-has been'? As for EU pensions and 'back seat jobs' I doubt that any of those I mentioned fit that criteria so, again, I don't really see your point.

[AngryRam]

'To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means'...Glory, Hallelujah...at last one of our leading Brexiteers sees the light and recognises what some of us have been saying for the last two months or more.

That is the point, people didn't know what Brexit meant when they voted back in June and as for becoming a 'laughing stock globally'...our Olympic achievements aside isn't that what we're in danger of becoming anyway...that and an isolated irrelevance.

Someone, probably BaaLocks, earlier today described the Brexit process as like 'unscrambling eggs'. Brilliant analogy imo...a mission impossible perhaps, that Mrs. May has cleverly handed over to 'Leave' minded ministers. Let's see how they get on.

Tricky, htf can anyone be an 'ex-has been'? As for EU pensions and 'back seat jobs' I doubt that any of those I mentioned fit that criteria so, again, I don't really see your point.

See now there you go, jumping in too quickly.. Can you tell me exactly what remaining in will be? Nope of course you can't. Nobody has said that either way.. Classic remainers post.
As we stand globally, the people I speak to admire our bravery.. Nobody said there was not risk involved.
Back in your box my young padawan.

[ramAnag]

It's a while since I was called a 'young' anything so you've got a plus point there.

Self evidently one always has greater knowledge of what is involved when one 'remains' be that...in a house without moving, with a bank without transferring, in a relationship without divorcing, choosing a team without any new signings or staying as part of a community and not quitting.

That isn't an argument for not changing but wise and informed change...in this instance and in your own words...'would need full details of what exit means'. That is something we didn't have in June and still, again by your own admission, are no nearer and that is absolutely the point.

Perhaps it is you who are the impetuous one my agitated cockney friend.

[AngryRam]

It's a while since I was called a 'young' anything so you've got a plus point there.

Self evidently one always has greater knowledge of what is involved when one 'remains' be that...in a house without moving, with a bank without transferring, in a relationship without divorcing, choosing a team without any new signings or staying as part of a community and not quitting.

That isn't an argument for not changing but wise and informed change...in this instance and in your own words...'would need full details of what exit means'. That is something we didn't have in June and still, again by your own admission, are no nearer and that is absolutely the point.

Perhaps it is you who are the impetuous one my agitated cockney friend.

But you neglect to answer my question.. What EXACTLY does remaining in mean? You did not know in June either. You tell me with any certainty what the EU will be like in 10 years? What will be the situation with Turkey? Albania? Can you guarantee me that we will still have a veto? Will with have the euro as a currency? Will Forest have finished above us!
The detail remark was in reply to Baalocks, let's go back and review later remark, what would you be reviewing? Impossible and unrealistic IMO.
Generally My assumption of you is that you don't like change.. I get that impression from your football related posts as well as this thread.. Better the devil you know type of guy. Apologies if I am wrong but that is my mental picture of your good self.
Same route to work everyday? Europe is your comfort blanket. We will thrive outside Europe.. Yes it will have its challenges but we will prevail.
Change can be good.. Same old, same old and you miss opportunity.

[swaledale]

That is very true, we don,t have any idea as to what Brexit will mean and as with any major decision the devil is in the detail.


As for the claim that remaining in the Eu meant the inevitability of accepting the EU super state, on what evidence is that based? Seeing as any decisions on that would have to be agreed by UK politicians and mean giving away the VETO, which thus far kept us out of the Euro, Schengen agreement and closer integration that is clearly only a remote possibility which Leave waved around as a done deal.

All in all its been a pretty shabby show by politicians on all sides, Cameron gambled with this countrys future in order to stop the infighting in the Tories and failed miserably, then ****ed off leaving others to sort out the mess! Must be nice to be able to **** up in a job and then be so rich that you can just chuck it in (whilst at the same time handing out gongs to your flunkys!!).

[AdiSalisbury]

Can't get my head around the view that the EU is stable / risk free / predictable. Everyone in it wants something different, many are unhappy with decisions made, nobody knows who's next to hold an in out vote, no one knows what terms it is going to impose next. I'm sure when Turkey join with their stable government it will add to the stability ???

We may know what it is today, but we don't know what it is tomorrow, and I just don't buy the argument that it offers stability any further than the end of its nose.

[BaaLocks]

But the Visa argument is extreme, has anyone said that we will need these?
I don't see travel in Europe being any different to what we experience now. Apart from we will have to use the non-eu channel.. It might be quicker.
To follow your logic, we would need full details on exactly what exit means.. Trade, immigration, phone tariffs, milk and eggs the whole nine yards. Surely once we know that it would be impossible to go back and say.. Nah, sorry Mr Brussels we've changed our minds.
Would it ever be possible to get to that point anyway? We would be a laughing stock globally.
The world is a dangerous place now.. Europe is not managing that.. I'm all for pulling the drawbridge up (a little).. INCOMING
Welcome to the debate by the way.. Where have you been?

Where have I been? Trying to retire from football forums but they are strangely sticky aren't they? I'll have another go at some point and then crawl in once more through the back door. Which is why I never do the big 'I'm leaving and thanks for everything' mail as I know in my heart that I don't mean it.

As for your point, yes I do understand that the visa argument is not a literal one and I wasn't really suggesting you were claiming it to be. However, my point was a more broad one that said we have said leave but without anyone really knowing what that means.

I also get the point that we can't expect a 240,000 page digest of every finely chewed over point before we can make a decision. But I do think we can, and should, get to a reasonable mid-point. Indication of what trade agreements will look like, immigration, security, funding differences, will we still be allowed to sing in Eurovision - all the key highlight points. Ideally, my belief is that we then put that to the people for reasons I've made more than once.

However, to not know those things, and I mean know them, before we exercise Article 50 is folly of the highest order. Some might argue that people in dark corridors are working it out as we speak (and in some cases they are - e.g. commitment to science funding made last week) but surely that needs to be shared before we proceed. Isn't that the broader point of a referendum? Otherwise the thing is a sham and would cause suitable outrage if done in any other circumstance - taking a high level directional opinion (in / out) and using that one piece of data to force through a multitude of constitutional changes on the assumption they help drive the original binary decision.

[roger_ramjet]

See now there you go, jumping in too quickly.. Can you tell me exactly what remaining in will be? Nope of course you can't. Nobody has said that either way.. Classic remainers post.
As we stand globally, the people I speak to admire our bravery.. Nobody said there was not risk involved.
Back in your box my young padawan.

I thought padawan was for cleaning shoes with?

[swaledale]

Can't get my head around the view that the EU is stable / risk free / predictable. Everyone in it wants something different, many are unhappy with decisions made, nobody knows who's next to hold an in out vote, no one knows what terms it is going to impose next. I'm sure when Turkey join with their stable government it will add to the stability ???

We may know what it is today, but we don't know what it is tomorrow, and I just don't buy the argument that it offers stability any further than the end of its nose.

When Turkey joins? Another assumption and looking less likely day by day.

At the moment the Eu does offer stability because its a common thread joining 28, soon to be 27 countries together, yes of course things will change in the future. But economically it is very important to the Uk and as long as countries interests are served better by cooperation then thats a good thing, IF countries start turning in on themselves and there is a rise of nationalistic self interest and a scapegoating of foreigners for example, then that makes a very dangerous situation.

Turkey is a difficult conundrum, politically it is important to the EU and the west in general, as it bridges the divide between west and east. There has to be some sort of deal in both europes and Turkeys interests, otherwise there could be untold political turmoil.

[AngryRam]

No it's the promised land Adi.. Milk and honey.

[swaledale]

Who said that? Its probably the lesser of two evils which is like most things in politics!

[AngryRam]

When Turkey joins? Another assumption and looking less likely day by day.

At the moment the Eu does offer stability because its a common thread joining 28, soon to be 27 countries together, yes of course things will change in the future. But economically it is very important to the Uk and as long as countries interests are served better by cooperation then thats a good thing, IF countries start turning in on themselves and there is a rise of nationalistic self interest and a scapegoating of foreigners for example, then that makes a very dangerous situation.

Turkey is a difficult conundrum, politically it is important to the EU and the west in general, as it bridges the divide between west and east. There has to be some sort of deal in both europes and Turkeys interests, otherwise there could be untold political turmoil.

There you go you just killed Anag arguement..
Stability for the lesser nations who take from the net contributors. Who else is going to join that will bring anything to the party. Albania ffs.. Have you ever been there? Dark ages..
Turkey, looking less likely.. Maybe at the moment but they will open those doors at some point...
The German and French public, will soon be revolting.

[AngryRam]

Who said that? Its probably the lesser of two evils which is like most things in politics!

If you read your and Anags posts it is... Only joking.

[ramAnag]

But you neglect to answer my question.. What EXACTLY does remaining in mean? You did not know in June either. You tell me with any certainty what the EU will be like in 10 years? What will be the situation with Turkey? Albania? Can you guarantee me that we will still have a veto? Will with have the euro as a currency? Will Forest have finished above us!
The detail remark was in reply to Baalocks, let's go back and review later remark, what would you be reviewing? Impossible and unrealistic IMO.
Generally My assumption of you is that you don't like change.. I get that impression from your football related posts as well as this thread.. Better the devil you know type of guy. Apologies if I am wrong but that is my mental picture of your good self.
Same route to work everyday? Europe is your comfort blanket. We will thrive outside Europe.. Yes it will have its challenges but we will prevail.
Change can be good.. Same old, same old and you miss opportunity.

Slightly flawed response imo.
Of course I don't know exactly what the future holds or what the EU will be like in ten years time but I do have more idea of what we are letting ourselves in for via continued membership than by the 'leap in the dark' that is Brexit and at least by remaining as a member we have some say in what that future holds.

The comments about me not liking change are exactly as you describe...your assumption...and an unfounded one at that. No idea what you mean about my football posts reflecting this...an example might be helpful. Actually I embrace positive change but you'd be right if you said I'm not a gambler. I like to think things through and know as much as I can before embarking on decision making, an attribute which seems sadly lacking in our handling of this wretched referendum.