OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

What has happened to the concept of the village elder, the person who has taken and survived the worst and enjoyed the best that life can throw at them and recommend to the younger generation what works best. Teenagers are so gullible that they are prepared to put their necks on the block just because politicians tell them to go, subdue and possibly kill people they don't know, never met and probably would like if they did meet.

Hardly a new concept Awks...the young being sent to war...was happening long before the concept of 'teenagers'. As for the 'village elder'...there's nothing wrong with the concept of age and experience being associated with wisdom but let's not pretend that's always the case.

[Akwesasne]

Hardly a new concept Awks...the young being sent to war...was happening long before the concept of 'teenagers'. As for the 'village elder'...there's nothing wrong with the concept of age and experience being associated with wisdom but let's not pretend that's always the case.

When I got married my Grandfather told me that if you had a belly full of food and a roof over your head you couldn't go far wrong. I thought it was a bit simplistic at the time but now realize it is very true. He didn't have a health service to rely on, but he had real care in the community which was the extended family. He didn't have a car,but everything was at hand and local so he didn't have to commute and spend a good portion of his life stuck in traffic congestion. He didn't go on holiday because he didn't have to. His locality was the best place on earth to be and that time not affected by urban sprawl. Also when the family met, there was good dialogue and not just a roomful of people with their nose's glued to a smart phone.

[roger_ramjet]

Ah nostalgia.... its not what it used to be.

But nonetheless aclot of truth in what you say Awkward

[swaledale]

When I got married my Grandfather told me that if you had a belly full of food and a roof over your head you couldn't go far wrong. I thought it was a bit simplistic at the time but now realize it is very true. He didn't have a health service to rely on, but he had real care in the community which was the extended family. He didn't have a car,but everything was at hand and local so he didn't have to commute and spend a good portion of his life stuck in traffic congestion. He didn't go on holiday because he didn't have to. His locality was the best place on earth to be and that time not affected by urban sprawl. Also when the family met, there was good dialogue and not just a roomful of people with their nose's glued to a smart phone.

Each to his own Awks, but you fail to mention the hundreds of thousands who died young due to various childhood diseases, the workers who popped their clogs before they even got a chance to retire through work accidents or work related illnesses, the hundreds of thousands who died due to cancer and other illnesses.

For those who do not wish to get out and explore that wide world out there and have experiences thats fine, but seriously, life does not stand still, never has and whilst its perhaps natural as one gets older to become more conservative and have a mellow misty eyed fondness for ones younger days, to be honest it does not actually mean that those days were any better - living life in a small community, abiding by strict rules and conventions, doing what "authority" told one to do (whether it was right or even moral or ethical) seems to me that what your saying is that your Grandfather accepted his lot, but most likely did not have much choice!


Ah life was much easier when the plebs knew their place, doffed their caps to the rich, didn't question why others could afford things they couldn't, went to war because it was their duty, but somehow in any country whatever the outcome of a war, the "ruling classes" always seemed to emerge relatively unscathed, whilst the plebs got slaughtered and then got **** all when they got home as hero's!

And yes wasn't life wonderful, when if you had money you could do what you like, but the vast majority hadn't and were happy with their lot..mmmmmmmmm

[Akwesasne]

Each to his own Awks, but you fail to mention the hundreds of thousands who died young due to various childhood diseases, the workers who popped their clogs before they even got a chance to retire through work accidents or work related illnesses, the hundreds of thousands who died due to cancer and other illnesses.

For those who do not wish to get out and explore that wide world out there and have experiences thats fine, but seriously, life does not stand still, never has and whilst its perhaps natural as one gets older to become more conservative and have a mellow misty eyed fondness for ones younger days, to be honest it does not actually mean that those days were any better - living life in a small community, abiding by strict rules and conventions, doing what "authority" told one to do (whether it was right or even moral or ethical) seems to me that what your saying is that your Grandfather accepted his lot, but most likely did not have much choice!


Ah life was much easier when the plebs knew their place, doffed their caps to the rich, didn't question why others could afford things they couldn't, went to war because it was their duty, but somehow in any country whatever the outcome of a war, the "ruling classes" always seemed to emerge relatively unscathed, whilst the plebs got slaughtered and then got **** all when they got home as hero's!

And yes wasn't life wonderful, when if you had money you could do what you like, but the vast majority hadn't and were happy with their lot..mmmmmmmmm

Every generation has it's previous Golden Age, so perhaps progress is an illusion used by those who have to keep the deprived in place. Mainly what you refer to has happened in recent times such as the enclosures and the Highland Clearances forcing people into disease ridden overpopulated industrial areas necessitating a scientific remedy. In other words they are disturbed ecosystems which historically are not normal on a healthy self-regulating planet.

[swaledale]

Every generation has it's previous Golden Age, so perhaps progress is an illusion used by those who have to keep the deprived in place. Mainly what you refer to has happened in recent times such as the enclosures and the Highland Clearances forcing people into disease ridden overpopulated industrial areas necessitating a scientific remedy. In other words they are disturbed ecosystems which historically are not normal on a healthy self-regulating planet.

Progress is an illusion? Well to be sure some things improve and others maybe get worse, but I will quote one statistic on mortality to show that in terms of health things have got a whole lot better.

By 2000, 83 per cent of all deaths in England and Wales
occurred at ages 65 and over compared with less than 25 per cent a
century earlier. Infant mortality accounted for 25 per cent of all deaths
in 1901 but less than 1 per cent at the end of the century.

This was not down to disturbed ecosystems requiring a scientific remedy - but to advances in the understanding of the causes of death and better prevention - you would really aspire to operate in a normal ecosystem whereby once you were old infirm or caught some naturally occurring disease you would die? Often a slow lingering and painful death, although presumably in this ecosystem of yours you would have predators to pick of the sick, the weak and the unlucky?

[roger_ramjet]

That might resolve the chronic global over population and lack of scarce resource issues Swale before the oil wars engulf us all.

Thomas Malthus was right 200 years ago - we need wars and diseases to regulate population. Artificially extending the life span beyond "three score years and ten" isnt necessarily a boon. And it ****s up the pension system.

If we could feed DCFCArmy to those predators it would help too.

[swaledale]

I don't think he was and those who ahve studied the issue don't agree either, of course 200 years ago thats what happened, but given that many scientists think Earth has a maximum carrying capacity of 9 billion to 10 billion people and there are currently 7 billion, globally, the fertility rate is falling to the "replacement level" — 2.1 children per woman, the rate at which children replace their parents (and make up for those who die young). If the global fertility rate does indeed reach replacement level by the end of the century, then the human population will stabilize between 9 billion and 10 billion. As far as Earth's capacity is concerned, we'll have gone about as far as we can go, but no farther.

Its not old age that ****ed up pensions, it was corporate greed, companies taking contribution holidays when schemes were in surplus and of course actually using that surplus for other purposes. ironically what is ****ing up pensions is a falling birth rate, fewer people following on behind to pay for us old's, part of the reason we need immigrant labour.

When you think of the millions who died in wars and from illnesses, that no longer do today and that people rarely have more than 1 or 2 children its clear thata ctually lifting nations out of poverty will see the birth rate fall, another argument for foreign aid, its in our interests!

[ramAnag]

Isn't it odd how when Obama passed comment on the prospect of Brexit he was pilloried by all the Brexiteers for interfering in another country's business, but now Trump is passing more supportive comments the very same former critics are welcoming him with open arms? The obsequious little creep Gove has even scurried across the 'pond' to interview him for the Times...and there's me thinking he should be doing his job as an MP.

[Andy_Faber]

Isn't it odd how when Obama passed comment on the prospect of Brexit he was pilloried by all the Brexiteers for interfering in another country's business, but now Trump is passing more supportive comments the very same former critics are welcoming him with open arms? The obsequious little creep Gove has even scurried across the 'pond' to interview him for the Times...and there's me thinking he should be doing his job as an MP.

I first heard the Trump/Gove interview on the radio yesterday, and I was hoping that the TV footage I saw later would reveal Gove to be wearing a little school cap and shorts, he really came over as an old-fashioned 'fag' trying to impress his prefect. Quite disappointed it didn't. Mrs Faber suggested that Gove's repeated use of the word 'yes' was because he could only squeak out one syllable at a time while he had his tongue up Trump's arse.

HOWEVER, at least Trump is offering support. I think the Obama thing was a massive tactical mistake and made me personally think a lot less of him - it was as if he, Osbourne and Richard Branson had colluded on a set of messages to scare the public, and by heck that backfired.

[ramAnag]

I first heard the Trump/Gove interview on the radio yesterday, and I was hoping that the TV footage I saw later would reveal Gove to be wearing a little school cap and shorts, he really came over as an old-fashioned 'fag' trying to impress his prefect. Quite disappointed it didn't. Mrs Faber suggested that Gove's repeated use of the word 'yes' was because he could only squeak out one syllable at a time while he had his tongue up Trump's arse.

HOWEVER, at least Trump is offering support. I think the Obama thing was a massive tactical mistake and made me personally think a lot less of him - it was as if he, Osbourne and Richard Branson had colluded on a set of messages to scare the public, and by heck that backfired.

Agree with every word of that first paragraph although, for one who thinks in pictures, Mrs. F's imagery leaves me feeling more than a little nauseous.
Unfortunately you're clearly right about 'the Obama thing' backfiring, which perfectly illustrates the current acceptance of Trump's views as reflecting that level of hypocrisy to which I was alluding.
As for 'at least Trump is offering support'...a case of 'beware of Greeks bearing gifts', as they once said in Troy...and yes I know he's actually got Scottish/German ancestry but it still seems appropriate.

[Andy_Faber]

Agree with every word of that first paragraph although, for one who thinks in pictures, Mrs. F's imagery leaves me feeling more than a little nauseous.
Unfortunately you're clearly right about 'the Obama thing' backfiring, which perfectly illustrates the current acceptance of Trump's views as reflecting that level of hypocrisy to which I was alluding.
As for 'at least Trump is offering support'...a case of 'beware of Greeks bearing gifts', as they once said in Troy...and yes I know he's actually got Scottish/German ancestry but it still seems appropriate.

Following on from my comment about 'fags', some reading this might not even know what I'm talking about, and that is relevant to the 'progress' Swale was beating on about earlier. I was out with a friend before Christmas who is a couple of years older than my 55 (although the b****** looks ten years younger than me) who went to a public school and came out of it I guess in summer '77. he was one of the 'unfortunate' ones who was a fag in his early school life but as he went through his school years the practise was phased out and he didn't get the benefits of being 'fagged for'. Some of the practises he described go a long way towards explaining how 'society' let Jimmy Saville get away with what he did.

[Ram59]

Personally, I don't take any notice of what Trump says, but Obama annoyed me because he was trying to influence our vote with threats that he had no power to carry out.

[Andy_Faber]

So here we go. Imelda May's twelve points (of which the BBC could only list five originally - useless old Beeb). what do you all think now?

1. We will provide certainty wherever we can.

2. Leaving the European Union will mean that our laws will be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.

3. A stronger Britain demands that we strengthen the precious union between the four nations of the United Kingdom.

4. We will deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the commons travel area with the Republic of Ireland.

5. Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe.

6. We want to guarantee rights of EU citizens living in Britain & rights of British nationals in other member states, as early as we can.

7. Not only will the Government protect the rights of workers set out in European legislation, we will build on them.

8. We will pursue a bold and ambitious Free Trade Agreement with the European Union.

9. It is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation.

10. We will welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives.

11. We will continue to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence policy even as we leave the EU itself.

12. We believe a phased process of implementation will be in the interests of Britain, the EU institutions and member states.

Regretably no mention of a second Scottish Independance referendum with only English and Welsh allowed to vote, as I was hoping for...

[ramAnag]

Okay...I'm no economist...I'll leave all that to Roger, AF and Swale...but I'm reasonably intelligent and after PMTM's comments this morning my take is...we seem to either want our cake and eat it or we want to leave absolutely everything to do with Europe, including tariff free trade, within the next two years. In the meantime the pound continues to fall against all other currencies making all the imports we depend on and holidays we enjoy a great deal more expensive. Inflation is up 0.4% more this month than anticipated but everything will be alright because the President Elect of the USA, a man who in his businessman incarnation was notorious for failing to pay his workers, says we're doing okay. He wants to do business with the Brits but there again he was also elected on a mandate of promising jobs for his countrymen via the rebuilding of US manufacturing. So...which bit of this is good news for us in Britain, is this really what the Brexiteers wanted or is it all rapidly turning from a dreadful mistake to total lunacy?