OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[roger_ramjet]

Maybe you can aspire to push UKIP into 4th place this year as their job is done 😊

[ramAnag]

Maybe you can aspire to push UKIP into 4th place this year as their job is done ��

It was 1986 Rog, when the constituency was still known as West Derbyshire. The Tories and Liberals polled almost 40,000 votes between them and McLoughlin won by a mere 100 votes. Labour also polled almost 10,000 that day. I voted Liberal, the wife voted Labour and we've never, as far as I know, 'split' our vote since. It's been solidly Tory (and pro Brexit) in the intervening years but you never know.

[roger_ramjet]

It was 1986 Rog, when the constituency was still known as West Derbyshire. The Tories and Liberals polled almost 40,000 votes between them and McLoughlin won by a mere 100 votes. Labour also polled almost 10,000 that day. I voted Liberal, the wife voted Labour and we've never, as far as I know, 'split' our vote since. It's been solidly Tory (and pro Brexit) in the intervening years but you never know.

There wasn't a general election in 1986! There was a bye election but those results are notoriously protest / counter cyclical. It was indeed very close - huge swing to SDP et al, but a year later at the general election it was back to a 10,000 Tory majority again.

In 1987 the Lib Dems (SDP Alliance at the time) were pretty much at their peak and had almost 25% of the national vote. There was a belief that they could become the main opposition party if Labour didnt sort its **** out.

Currently Labour again needs to sort its **** out but the Lib Dem share of the vote is now under 8%. I'm sure they will improve on that percentage this time around but they have so much ground to make up and the situation is so very diffferent to what it was in 1986 that I think they will be looking at playoffs at best

[macstheman]

That's more than the 'mighty' Rams managed!! Seriously though, I live in an area where the Lib Dems do well and are well received and that has not changed despite their low National Polling. I think, and hope, they will be more successful this time despite the invisible one!

[swaledale]

There wasn't a general election in 1986! There was a bye election but those results are notoriously protest / counter cyclical. It was indeed very close - huge swing to SDP et al, but a year later at the general election it was back to a 10,000 Tory majority again.

In 1987 the Lib Dems (SDP Alliance at the time) were pretty much at their peak and had almost 25% of the national vote. There was a belief that they could become the main opposition party if Labour didnt sort its **** out.

Currently Labour again needs to sort its **** out but the Lib Dem share of the vote is now under 8%. I'm sure they will improve on that percentage this time around but they have so much ground to make up and the situation is so very diffferent to what it was in 1986 that I think they will be looking at playoffs at best

The difference this time though is that a lot of Tory voters are pro EU, so a brexit tory campaign may not sit well with them!


What i find fascinating is that all and sundry moan about spin and politician's lies and May has shown with this about turn and her unbelievable reasons for it, that she is as two faced as many others, yet no doubt the votes will roll in.

Yet one politician who is not two faced, who says what he believes and sticks to it, is Corbyn, yet because he is not strident, smart suited and booted and does not employ Australian spin doctors, he isn't popular! So the cliche that people get the politicians they deserve is all to true!

[ramAnag]

The difference this time though is that a lot of Tory voters are pro EU, so a brexit tory campaign may not sit well with them!


What i find fascinating is that all and sundry moan about spin and politician's lies and May has shown with this about turn and her unbelievable reasons for it, that she is as two faced as many others, yet no doubt the votes will roll in.

Yet one politician who is not two faced, who says what he believes and sticks to it, is Corbyn, yet because he is not strident, smart suited and booted and does not employ Australian spin doctors, he isn't popular! So the cliche that people get the politicians they deserve is all to true!

Absolutely agree about May, Swale and with the sentiment about political 'spin'.
For what it's worth though that's not why I don't like Corbyn. I thought he let everyone down and was utterly inept over Brexit and his free school dinners for all primary aged children is idealistic nonsense. Think we'd both agree that you can judge the quality of a country/state by how well it provides for it's weakest members so I'm all in favour of free school dinners for those in need, but the logic of free school dinners for all escapes me and is just an unaffordable nonsense imo which casts a huge shadow over his judgement.

[Ram59]

The difference this time though is that a lot of Tory voters are pro EU, so a brexit tory campaign may not sit well with them!


What i find fascinating is that all and sundry moan about spin and politician's lies and May has shown with this about turn and her unbelievable reasons for it, that she is as two faced as many others, yet no doubt the votes will roll in.

Yet one politician who is not two faced, who says what he believes and sticks to it, is Corbyn, yet because he is not strident, smart suited and booted and does not employ Australian spin doctors, he isn't popular! So the cliche that people get the politicians they deserve is all to true!

He is definitely straight, I mean he wouldn't stoop as low as to sit on a train carriage floor to demonstrate over crowding when there were seats available, would he? He wouldn't reward an independent investigator into anti Semitism with a peerage after she gave a whitewash report. He wouldn't have a racist bitch on the front bench after she openly proclaimed that only black women could look after their kids properly.

Throw me the sick bag, he is no different to the others.

[swaledale]

He is definitely straight, I mean he wouldn't stoop as low as to sit on a train carriage floor to demonstrate over crowding when there were seats available, would he? He wouldn't reward an independent investigator into anti Semitism with a peerage after she gave a whitewash report. He wouldn't have a racist bitch on the front bench after she openly proclaimed that only black women could look after their kids properly.

Throw me the sick bag, he is no different to the others.

Mm politicians are politicians, but whilst he has some unrealistic ideals, I'd say he was a lot straighter than the others, and your quoting three incidents, which have been reported by the right wing media in a manner which your prepared to accept as completely true, which I guess fits in with your prejudicess.

[swaledale]

Absolutely agree about May, Swale and with the sentiment about political 'spin'.
For what it's worth though that's not why I don't like Corbyn. I thought he let everyone down and was utterly inept over Brexit and his free school dinners for all primary aged children is idealistic nonsense. Think we'd both agree that you can judge the quality of a country/state by how well it provides for it's weakest members so I'm all in favour of free school dinners for those in need, but the logic of free school dinners for all escapes me and is just an unaffordable nonsense imo which casts a huge shadow over his judgement.

Oh don't get me wrong Anag, I don't believe Corbyn is a good leader, though on the Brexit issue its clear Corbyn is at best luke warm about the EU and of course is in a bit of bind because many labour voters voted leave even though they are in areas unaffected by immigration, such as teesside for example.

I get the free school dinners for all idea, because one it avoids stigma of those children who qualify and two its not just children from poor families that don't get fed properly as I'm sure you know - as for unaffordable, well its funny how we can afford wars and military hardware and other such things, yet not basic social goods and if he makes those earning high incomes pay their fair share of tax then it would be affordable. As to whether its a priority policy thats debateable, but it ranks alongside May's reintroducing Grammar Schools at the very least.

[roger_ramjet]

Bring back free school milk that was snatched by the Thatch....or was it the Humphreys?

[Ram59]

Mm politicians are politicians, but whilst he has some unrealistic ideals, I'd say he was a lot straighter than the others, and your quoting three incidents, which have been reported by the right wing media in a manner which your prepared to accept as completely true, which I guess fits in with your prejudicess.

So the empty seats in the train were photoshopped and they got a female impressionist to say what we thought Abbott said and there's a Shracibati look alike sitting in the house of lords.

Regarding brexit, Everyman and his dog know that Corbyn was in favour, but didn't have the balls to come out and say it. Yes, I'm prejudice against that fool ruining the Labour party, because you need a decent opposition against any government.

Besides, I thought you weren't going to post on this topic anymore, Swale.

[ramAnag]

Blimey...it's got terribly tetchy on here this morning and, for once, it's not R4J's fault. Fall outs all over the place and all a bit uneccesary imo.
Anyway back on topic. I for one am glad Swale is contributing to this thread again but I'll beg to differ with him. There doesn't have to be a stigma about free school dinners anymore. I know that used to be the case and I, amongst many others, always used to go to great lengths to avoid the reinforcement of that stigma. Dinner money can now be collected in a much more sophisticated and surreptitious way and I get your point about how we find money for other things, but...it surely isn't the job of the State to provide a free dinner for all children and we do have finite resources. Imo money needs to be properly targeted...every child is entitled to a a decent meal at school and I think Breakfast Clubs are a fine idea but it is not the role of the State to provide this service for those who can afford it and simply removes resources from those in genuine need. Poorly thought out policy imo and all too typical of this well intentioned man who has never really progressed beyond the idealism of protest/student politics.

P.S. What's Chakrabarti got to do with it Ram59...I'm confused.

[swaledale]

Blimey...it's got terribly tetchy on here this morning and, for once, it's not R4J's fault. Fall outs all over the place and all a bit uneccesary imo.
Anyway back on topic. I for one am glad Swale is contributing to this thread again but I'll beg to differ with him. There doesn't have to be a stigma about free school dinners anymore. I know that used to be the case and I, amongst many others, always used to go to great lengths to avoid the reinforcement of that stigma. Dinner money can now be collected in a much more sophisticated and surreptitious way and I get your point about how we find money for other things, but...it surely isn't the job of the State to provide a free dinner for all children and we do have finite resources. Imo money needs to be properly targeted...every child is entitled to a a decent meal at school and I think Breakfast Clubs are a fine idea but it is not the role of the State to provide this service for those who can afford it and simply removes resources from those in genuine need. Poorly thought out policy imo and all too typical of this well intentioned man who has never really progressed beyond the idealism of protest/student politics.

P.S. What's Chakrabarti got to do with it Ram59...I'm confused.

No Anag its not got tetchy, i ws responding robustly to Ram59 who has a right wing view of matters and made a scathing remark about Corbyn and challenged him on that, he responds in kind, given that we have diametrically opposing views on things i expect him to come back strongly and I will do the same, I have no problem with that and no personal animosity against him.

I do think he chucks sound bites generated by the right wing media around but that is up to him.

I find Andy's refusal to answer my query a tad patronising but hey ho thats him!

[swaledale]

So the empty seats in the train were photoshopped and they got a female impressionist to say what we thought Abbott said and there's a Shracibati look alike sitting in the house of lords.

Regarding brexit, Everyman and his dog know that Corbyn was in favour, but didn't have the balls to come out and say it. Yes, I'm prejudice against that fool ruining the Labour party, because you need a decent opposition against any government.

Besides, I thought you weren't going to post on this topic anymore, Swale.

Really everyman and his dog knows Corbyn supports the EU? Mm I don't think thats correct, its not that he hasn't got the balls to say so, its because there are some things he likes about the Eu and some things he doesn't - he is against the powerful elites that control matters including the Eu but recognises the social justice elements that have progressed with the EU and the benefits of free trade.

Seeing he has consistently said that he will not oppose the brexit vote, I would say your letting your prejudice colour your judgement.
Back to the issues you raised - mm well what proof have you that those seats were on the same train? So much "news" is misreported or presented in a fashion that pursues a certain agenda that only a very gullable person would believe it without question - also how do you know if there were seats on that train that they werent reserved? I've been on trains where there were scores of empty seats that were reserved, granted I took the option of taking one, and seeing if anyone turned up, but then I'm not a politician.

On what Abbot said, as you don't know the question or context or if you do you haven't said so, I'd be very wary of accepting that is what she said or meant on face value - I've done a number of Tv interviews and having watched them back, the edited version bore absolutely no relation to the actual interview, they spliced some of my answers to completely different questions and even edited words out of my answers to give a completely different meaning.

As for the whitewash on anti semitism, mm again thats what the right wing media reported rather than what actually happened and guess what they often chnage the facts or word the to suit their own agenda - we shall see mor eof this as the election campaign gathers force and those who choose to accept things because it suits thier beleifs will swallow the lies and distrtions and we will again end up with the politicians we deserve!

The irony is that I find neither Corbyn or Abbot particulary appealing politicans!

I refrained from contributing on here recognising that it was pearls before swine to question the untruths, people believe what they want to believe, and there was nothing new to add to the debate, brexit was going to happen and I knew that when it did I would be laughing when many of those who voted for it found out that it changed thing very little for them and for the worse in most cases.

The election has changed matters and added something new to the debate which is why I have returned to posting on the thread.

[AdiSalisbury]

On the train thing, it wasn't right wing media posting saying the seats were empty, it was Virgin rail (considering Branson is anti Brexit, can't really say they're particularly right wing). He might argue that they had "reserved" cards on them, but anyone who catches trains regularly will know to read the ticket as they are only reserved for certain parts of the journey. If memory serves right, Virgin trains even have digital displays showing this.

So either he's an idiot, or just another politician.

I don't think he's an idiot.