OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Right in every respect, imo Rog.
I know exactly why it's being brought up - seven years on - by malicious and mischief making right wingers, but if they're going to introduce racism into the debate they really do need to put their own house in order first.

[Ram59]

Right in every respect, imo Rog.
I know exactly why it's being brought up - seven years on - by malicious and mischief making right wingers, but if they're going to introduce racism into the debate they really do need to put their own house in order first.

I shudder to think you were once a teacher anag, no wonder we have so many disaffected kids leaving school.

If you capable of reading and understanding English, let's try once again. Swale, a fellow member from tooting popular front, claimed that Corbyn was a straight leader. I argued that if he was straight (unlike All the others, including Tories) he wouldn't make up photo opportunities on trains with seats free and have a well known racist on his front bench and so on.

This reply to swale has nothing to do with what anybody else does. Swale claims comrade Corbyn walks around with a halo on his head and it's not true. Where have I said that the Tories are any better. You look at my posts and I never claim that the Tories are perfect, more that once, I have said that I would prefer a coalition and/or a strong opposition. If this is your idea of a right wing supporter, I'm afraid you're a bitter and twisted person.

[swaledale]

I shudder to think you were once a teacher anag, no wonder we have so many disaffected kids leaving school.

If you capable of reading and understanding English, let's try once again. Swale, a fellow member from tooting popular front, claimed that Corbyn was a straight leader. I argued that if he was straight (unlike All the others, including Tories) he wouldn't make up photo opportunities on trains with seats free and have a well known racist on his front bench and so on.

This reply to swale has nothing to do with what anybody else does. Swale claims comrade Corbyn walks around with a halo on his head and it's not true. Where have I said that the Tories are any better. You look at my posts and I never claim that the Tories are perfect, more that once, I have said that I would prefer a coalition and/or a strong opposition. If this is your idea of a right wing supporter, I'm afraid you're a bitter and twisted person.

Oh come on Ram59 I have never suggested that Corbyn walks round with a halo on his head, and I changed the word straight to authentic - by and and large for a politician he says what he means. i then pointed out that voters who frankly speak as if THEY have no prejudices or wouldn't seek to capitalise on a situation if they thought it could be to their advantage.

The Abbot so called Racist remark, Rog you will have to come down off your high horse on this, because white politicians have said much worse things some of the scare stories and untruths about immigrants by right wing ones have been scandelous- if you were of a race that had suffered hundreds of years of exploitation and discrimination then nobody would be bringing this up, its no more than follish over the top rhetoric, playing to her constituents and only a white person with an over exaggerated sense that somehow non white people are getting a better deal than us white folks - a point pressed home by a right wing tabloid newspaper.

I've also clearly stated that i am not overenamoured by either Corbyn or Abbott, neither am I far left in views, unless wanting a society where as far as possible all people are treated equally and given equal opportunity, where people put aside their prejudices and where the wealth created is spread rather more equally than it is at the moment equals far left!

What i don't do is source information from media that clearly have an agenda, I prefer to those that give a balanced view and as far as it is ever possible in any media source stick to the facts, rather than use an angle that panders to the known prejudices of their audience.

Its a demonstrable fact that human beings will ignore facts which counter their own beliefs, what i do is try and get over that to get to the truth, whereas its obvious on here that others will believe what they want to believe whether its true or not!

[ramAnag]

I shudder to think you were once a teacher anag, no wonder we have so many disaffected kids leaving school.

If you capable of reading and understanding English, let's try once again. Swale, a fellow member from tooting popular front, claimed that Corbyn was a straight leader. I argued that if he was straight (unlike All the others, including Tories) he wouldn't make up photo opportunities on trains with seats free and have a well known racist on his front bench and so on.

This reply to swale has nothing to do with what anybody else does. Swale claims comrade Corbyn walks around with a halo on his head and it's not true. Where have I said that the Tories are any better. You look at my posts and I never claim that the Tories are perfect, more that once, I have said that I would prefer a coalition and/or a strong opposition. If this is your idea of a right wing supporter, I'm afraid you're a bitter and twisted person.

An explanation of that first comment would be very welcome. Apart from often disagreeing with you, where politics is concerned, what have I done or said to make you reach that conclusion?

I'm really not interested in arguing about Swale, but you, and you alone, introduced racism into this debate. You only wanted to concentrate on Diane Abbot who I actually mostly agree with you about. You don't want to/won't debate about the much more relevant and up to date selection of Lynton Crosby so come on...
1. What has anything I've said got to do with me being a teacher?
2. Why drag the Abbot stuff up after so long?
3. Why avoid Theresa May's choice of Lynton Crosby when that appears equally tarnished by racism and is much more up to date?
4. Why is it okay to refer to Swale and I being part of the 'Tooting Popular Front' but object to being referred to as 'right wing'?
5. Where have I ever suggested you think the Tories are 'perfect'? Without checking, I said you clearly favoured one party over another and as you take every opportunity to discredit anything to do with Labour, it equally clearly isn't them.

[Ram59]

An explanation of that first comment would be very welcome. Apart from often disagreeing with you, where politics is concerned, what have I done or said to make you reach that conclusion?

I'm really not interested in arguing about Swale, but you, and you alone, introduced racism into this debate. You only wanted to concentrate on Diane Abbot who I actually mostly agree with you about. You don't want to/won't debate about the much more relevant and up to date selection of Lynton Crosby so come on...
1. What has anything I've said got to do with me being a teacher?
2. Why drag the Abbot stuff up after so long?
3. Why avoid Theresa May's choice of Lynton Crosby when that appears equally tarnished by racism and is much more up to date?
4. Why is it okay to refer to Swale and I being part of the 'Tooting Popular Front' but object to being referred to as 'right wing'?
5. Where have I ever suggested you think the Tories are 'perfect'? Without checking, I said you clearly favoured one party over another and as you take every opportunity to discredit anything to do with Labour, it equally clearly isn't them.

In answer to your questions anag.

1, As a teacher I would expect you understand answering questions without going off at a tangent. What swale said about Corbyn is like him saying Leeds play in red shirts and I respond that they play in white ones. You would then keep on about Derby playing in white shirts also. Whilst true, it had no relevance to the original argument. I despair of a teacher can't understand that concept.

2, The Abbott thing was only 1 of a number of points made against Corbyn's judgement, which is still relevant because she's still there despite several racist comments. Again this is about Corbyn and HIS level of honesty.

3, To be honest, I wasn't aware of this appointment, but my original comments were, I repeat, directed at Corbyn's honesty. Otherwise, why stop at May, why not include every other party leader? You are just trying to distract the attention away from the subject Corbyn's honesty.

4, it's not OK, it's simply tongue in cheek retaliation of you labelling me with tricky.

5, You said that I was right wing with tricky, I like to think I'm a bit more intelligent than that. I have conceded that certain labour and liberal policies have been good, likewise I have said that I do not fancy a massive Tory majority. On the other hand, I can't remember you or swale saying anything positive about the Tories.

[Ram59]

BTW, swale, I have recognised that you've softened on your views about Corbyn and that you're not claiming him to be straight any more, just not as bent as everyone else!

So, my argument was right, basically.

[ramAnag]

In answer to your questions anag.

1, As a teacher I would expect you understand answering questions without going off at a tangent. What swale said about Corbyn is like him saying Leeds play in red shirts and I respond that they play in white ones. You would then keep on about Derby playing in white shirts also. Whilst true, it had no relevance to the original argument. I despair of a teacher can't understand that concept.

2, The Abbott thing was only 1 of a number of points made against Corbyn's judgement, which is still relevant because she's still there despite several racist comments. Again this is about Corbyn and HIS level of honesty.

3, To be honest, I wasn't aware of this appointment, but my original comments were, I repeat, directed at Corbyn's honesty. Otherwise, why stop at May, why not include every other party leader? You are just trying to distract the attention away from the subject Corbyn's honesty.

4, it's not OK, it's simply tongue in cheek retaliation of you labelling me with tricky.

5, You said that I was right wing with tricky, I like to think I'm a bit more intelligent than that. I have conceded that certain labour and liberal policies have been good, likewise I have said that I do not fancy a massive Tory majority. On the other hand, I can't remember you or swale saying anything positive about the Tories.

1. Where have I 'gone off at a tangent' and why should a teacher be any more or less likely to go 'off at a tangent' than anyone else?
Think you said something daft and are now clutching at straws on that one.
2 and 3. You challenged Corbyn's judgement...don't blame you, but my point is that the infinitely more experienced and allegedly ever so 'Christian' Mrs. May is guilty of exactly the same thing - putting an alleged racist in a position of authority - only her 'mistake' is far more recent and seeing as she's the current PM, a far more worrying example of a bad judgement call.
4 and 5. Can't argue with your objection to 'labelling you with Tricky'...that's a fair cop.
Think the 'bitter and twisted' bit was out of order, but if you trawl back through this thread you will find that I've said 'kind' things about 'one nation Tories', indeed in the immediate post Brexit chaos, which has never really gone away, I think I expressed hope for a coalition of LibDems, one nation Tories, Welsh, Scots and 'sensible' Labour (this would exclude the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox, IDS, Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell) that view hasn't changed but it does seem less and less likely.

[swaledale]

BTW, swale, I have recognised that you've softened on your views about Corbyn and that you're not claiming him to be straight any more, just not as bent as everyone else!

So, my argument was right, basically.

No your argument wasn't right IMO, you listed the train incident - as if that was the biggest example of a politician lying , when actually the point was a valid one and i answered that by saying I've been on trains where there are empty seats which are all reserved. And the railways are crap, overpriced, cost more in public subsidy than in BR days and often overcrowded.

Don't agree Abbott made rascist remarks, thats an interpretation put on it by a right wing media to satisfy the view of poor white folks that somehow they being discriminated against - when white politicians cease making their crass remarks then you can call out a black one, bit like the school bully complaining that someone hit him and saying its not fair. No it isn't and as Roger would say to wrongs don't make aright, but my sympathy lies with the one who hit the bully. Which does not alter the fact that Abbot was careless with her words rather than rascist.

I haven't softened my views on Corbyn , he is clearly a politician with strong views which he believes in, anti nuclear, anti inequality etc etc, and it would be disingenuous to suggest that he could in anything in politics by being entirely straight and truthful, nobody would vote for a politician that told the truth. I have always said that unfortunately, he is not a good leader and that however well meaning, many of his policies are not realistic - but I find him a damn sight more trustworthy that May who calls and election for purely political reasons and then claims its in the national interest, to be able to do what she wants in parliament.

The examples you gave of him not being straight do not show he isn't, they may cast doubt on his judgement, and i changed it to authentic because someone said all politicians are not straight, which i concede because thats the nature of politics. You analogy about me going off tangent is unfortunately not true, its you who do not like you preconceived prejudicies challenged.

[Ram59]

1. Where have I 'gone off at a tangent' and why should a teacher be any more or less likely to go 'off at a tangent' than anyone else?
Think you said something daft and are now clutching at straws on that one.
2 and 3. You challenged Corbyn's judgement...don't blame you, but my point is that the infinitely more experienced and allegedly ever so 'Christian' Mrs. May is guilty of exactly the same thing - putting an alleged racist in a position of authority - only her 'mistake' is far more recent and seeing as she's the current PM, a far more worrying example of a bad judgement call.
4 and 5. Can't argue with your objection to 'labelling you with Tricky'...that's a fair cop.
Think the 'bitter and twisted' bit was out of order, but if you trawl back through this thread you will find that I've said 'kind' things about 'one nation Tories', indeed in the immediate post Brexit chaos, which has never really gone away, I think I expressed hope for a coalition of LibDems, one nation Tories, Welsh, Scots and 'sensible' Labour (this would exclude the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox, IDS, Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell) that view hasn't changed but it does seem less and less likely.

I've been looking for evidence of Crosby's racism and haven't found anything, except from 'sources'. Maybe you've got evidence in the way of recordings or twitter publications as in Abbott's case. Also, I haven't seen Crosby sitting on the front bench in the house of commons.

[ramAnag]

I've been looking for evidence of Crosby's racism and haven't found anything, except from 'sources'. Maybe you've got evidence in the way of recordings or twitter publications as in Abbott's case. Also, I haven't seen Crosby sitting on the front bench in the house of commons.

Of course I haven't got 'recordings' and I have nothing at all to do with 'Twitter'. Maybe you haven't looked very hard. I'd say a man who is on record as suggesting...if you put a head scarf round a bus a Muslim would vote for it...who claimed, falsely, that Afghan boat people were throwing their children into the sea in order to gain sympathy and access to Australia...who said that reaching out to ethnic voters 'muddies' the Tory message so stop chasing the 'f******' Muslim vote and who tried to associate Sadiq Khan with terrorism and radical Islam during the London mayoral campaign on the basis of his Pakistani heritage...might just be considered racist.
Obviously he's not on the front bench in the HoC, largely because he's Australian and a spin doctor not an MP. He has however, not for the first time, been put in charge of the Tory election campaign. Are you honestly happy with that?

Watch out for the 'dead cat' routine...the total distraction tactic as seen by Johnson's attack on Corbyn this morning. Classic Crosby...if things get remotely awkward talk about Mugwumps or even £350m per week for the NHS...although that last one is something BJ learned from Crosby and he can't be held directly responsible for that. The more divisive and distracted this campaign becomes the more it'll be down to Crosby. He's good...but thoroughly unscrupulous and nasty imo.

[swaledale]

Your wasting your time Anag, people believe what suits their agenda and an interesting piece of research showed that the majority of people will continue to believe in line with their prejudice or pre formed opinions even when what they believe is shown to be false!

When I get quoted back on something i posted that shows that either the person posting hasn't read my post properly, or has interpreted it according to their prejudice, then I realise its a waste of time and effort. Thats why I stopped posting on here, open minds are hard to find!

[roger_ramjet]

Mugwumps - splendid reference. In an election where the primary issue (Brexit) transcends party politics then there are great opportunities for mugwumpery. If nothing else Corbyn is at least principled and so a prime candidate for the "Adams Family"

[ramAnag]

Your wasting your time Anag, people believe what suits their agenda and an interesting piece of research showed that the majority of people will continue to believe in line with their prejudice or pre formed opinions even when what they believe is shown to be false!

When I get quoted back on something i posted that shows that either the person posting hasn't read my post properly, or has interpreted it according to their prejudice, then I realise its a waste of time and effort. Thats why I stopped posting on here, open minds are hard to find!

You've got to try Swale. Might not change the mind of the person your arguing with - doubt Ram59 and I will ever see eye to eye politically - but others might be swayed along the way. Can't let the Crosby/Johnson 'mafia' have it all their own way...'mighty oaks from little acorns' and all that.

[Andy_Faber]

Your wasting your time Anag, people believe what suits their agenda and an interesting piece of research showed that the majority of people will continue to believe in line with their prejudice or pre formed opinions even when what they believe is shown to be false!

When I get quoted back on something i posted that shows that either the person posting hasn't read my post properly, or has interpreted it according to their prejudice, then I realise its a waste of time and effort. Thats why I stopped posting on here, open minds are hard to find!

I read your posts properly, and I notice in this instance that once again your 'interesting piece of research' isn't cited, my general assumption in such cases is'if it ain't cited its false news'. On a couple of occasions I've called you out on this and you've gone a bit quiet.

[ramAnag]

I read your posts properly, and I notice in this instance that once again your 'interesting piece of research' isn't cited, my general assumption in such cases is'if it ain't cited its false news'. On a couple of occasions I've called you out on this and you've gone a bit quiet.

Tbf Andy, Swale usually fights his corner pretty well and is a very long way from being the worst when it comes to going a 'bit quiet' or into 'hiding' when challenged. I'm still awaiting responses after being 'called out' on a couple of occasions by one particular contributor.
Always quick to accuse...rather slower to react when the accusation is questioned.