OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

I don't think I'm wasting it just expressing the view that referendum #2 is a waste of time and effort.

Consider this: remainders are so confident that they will win referendum #1 that they receive a shock when they don't. But remainders still head the party in power after the change in leadership. What can they do to ensure it won't happen while giving the appearance of doing what the referendum says to do?

Waste time and get a bum deal that satisfies noone. So they go thru the motions, call an election for no reason to delay things further, but with the benefit of reducing its majority making it impossible to push the Brexit legislation through.

Then all that is needed is to " negotiate badly" and get a deal that is remain in all but name. Bring that back to the country too late for any renegotiation. Advance the spectre of no deal as the only option which none but the hardcore want. Then maybe let's waste time by having another meaningless referendum.

Thus the remainer leader in the guise of "negotiating in good faith" can present a "no choice but to stay" solution having pretended to be trying to leave. No doubt the EU have been complicit in the mirage too, helping delay things and conceding nothing. Conspiracy theory, maybe. But this whole fiasco was probably dreamed up and planned for before Article 50 was even revoked.

The people have been played like a fish on the end of a line by the politicians who by and large didn't want to leave. A weak Labour leader went along with it by lacking any decisiveness and never publically aligning with the leave vote, allowing the Conservative remain majority to complete the fabrication.

rA, you should be kissing May's arse for getting what you wanted all along by stealth, not relying on Joe public to change their minds

I considered all that many moons ago GP, I take all your points and don’t think it is necessarily a ‘conspiracy theory’.
The thing I disagree with most is you saying the ‘public have been played like fish by the politicians who didn’t want to leave’ when, imo, the public were initially played like fish by those, especially Messrs Mirage, Banks, Johnson, IDS, Davies, Gove and Rees-Mogg, who were desperate to leave. They lied, broke the rules and promised a non existent land of milk and honey operating in not so splendid isolation, in order to further their own careers and delusions.
Now, if nothing else, the notion of a ‘hard, no deal Brexit’ has been largely exposed for what it is...an exercise in self harming lunacy and that...imo, is what we must, if it comes to it, vote against...which is why, imo, you shouldn’t ‘waste’ your vote.
As for your suggestion about Mrs. May...I think I’ll pass on that one thanks...

[MadAmster]

Can't find it now but there has been a list doing the rounds on FB for over 2 years now. It's a list of UK factories that have moved abroad allegedly with the aid of EU subsidies.

This page seems to debunk that list..... http://ilovetheeu.co.uk/trade/no-the...out-of-the-uk/

[swaledale]

I don't think I'm wasting it just expressing the view that referendum #2 is a waste of time and effort.

Consider this: remainders are so confident that they will win referendum #1 that they receive a shock when they don't. But remainders still head the party in power after the change in leadership. What can they do to ensure it won't happen while giving the appearance of doing what the referendum says to do?

Waste time and get a bum deal that satisfies noone. So they go thru the motions, call an election for no reason to delay things further, but with the benefit of reducing its majority making it impossible to push the Brexit legislation through.

Then all that is needed is to " negotiate badly" and get a deal that is remain in all but name. Bring that back to the country too late for any renegotiation. Advance the spectre of no deal as the only option which none but the hardcore want. Then maybe let's waste time by having another meaningless referendum.

Thus the remainer leader in the guise of "negotiating in good faith" can present a "no choice but to stay" solution having pretended to be trying to leave. No doubt the EU have been complicit in the mirage too, helping delay things and conceding nothing. Conspiracy theory, maybe. But this whole fiasco was probably dreamed up and planned for before Article 50 was even revoked.

The people have been played like a fish on the end of a line by the politicians who by and large didn't want to leave. A weak Labour leader went along with it by lacking any decisiveness and never publicly aligning with the leave vote, allowing the Conservative remain majority to complete the fabrication.

rA, you should be kissing May's arse for getting what you wanted all along by stealth, not relying on Joe public to change their minds

Some of that may have a grain of truth, but then the [people she may have played are the 37% who voted Brexit without having a clear idea as to what that actually entailed - and lets just for one moment pause and think of the antics of the Brexit politicians or at least those whoa re Tory's - where was their bold decisive bid for leadership? May finished up being the only one standing largely because the prominent Brexiteers - you know the ones that peddled lies about the benefits of Brexit - portraying it as a "win win" for the UK, saying that it would take a couple of months to get a good deal, that £350 million would be going to the NHS instead of the EU (when the actual figure paid was half that!).

Where was their bold plan for Brexit, where was their clear line of sight of what they wanted to achieve and how they wanted to achieve it?

I don't remember them saying that it was far more complicated due to the hundreds of shared agreements, regulatory bodies etc etc, so if a bitter Brexit supporter really wants to find blame for the sorry state we are in, perhaps they should be looking very closely at the leading politicians who were leavers and ask themselves why did they not do what was required, why did they just waffle about it being a breeze and carp and snipe from the sidelines or pursue their own personal political agendas rather than actually work to secure what they told the people was going to be easy and a path to a brighter future?

Yes those who voted Leave have been played for fools, by the very politicians who were so keen on Brexit, but then those same people were clearly at best naive and at worst completely ignorant if they believed what they voted for!

[swaledale]

I have to say I wouldn't bother voting in a second referendum myself. Out of principle. We've already had one

We'd already had an election presumably on the same principal you didn't vote in that?

Well heres hoping when we have another referendum (it wont be a second because it will have different propositions) that all those numpty's that voted leave refrain from voting this time and it will be a landslide in favour of remain!

[swaledale]

Yes those may be the three options, but can you honestly say hand on heart that you think any of the options would get a clear majority choice in favour? Hell, when it was a matter of just two choices you were not happy with Brexit garnering less than 50% of electorate. I can't see that a 3 way choice will do anything but cloud the issue still more.

Let's speculate on an outcome ( figures are %of those voting) : hard Brexit 20%, May deal 35%, remain after all 45%

Who wins? The biggest outcome was remain but that gets less votes than to leave. Its also less than 50% of those voting let alone of those eligible to vote.

See, waste of time.

It wont be a 3 option vote, makes no sense it will be May deal or remain.

[ramAnag]

It wont be a 3 option vote, makes no sense it will be May deal or remain.

I do so hope you’re right Swale, but I’ve never forgotten your confidence (complacency?) on the night of the Referendum. Went to bed thinking all was well with the World and woke up to that tw@t Farage in full on triumphalist mode. Then, five months later the same thing happened with Trump! Never ever want to experience that again.

[MadAmster]

I do so hope you’re right Swale, but I’ve never forgotten your confidence (complacency?) on the night of the Referendum. Went to bed thinking all was well with the World and woke up to that tw@t Farage in full on triumphalist mode. Then, five months later the same thing happened with Trump! Never ever want to experience that again.

Memory. A strange thing. My memory of the morning after the night before is that Farage (you know, that chap who will get a 73K a year pension once his seat in Brussels terminates in March......) and Boris were conspicuous by their absence and, when they finally did appear, they were subdued, quiet, flat and everything but the elated jerk we all expected. They did not look at all happy.

[ramAnag]

Memory. A strange thing. My memory of the morning after the night before is that Farage (you know, that chap who will get a 73K a year pension once his seat in Brussels terminates in March......) and Boris were conspicuous by their absence and, when they finally did appear, they were subdued, quiet, flat and everything but the elated jerk we all expected. They did not look at all happy.

You’re right about Johnson, MA...he and Gove were probably more preoccupied with which of them was going to be the next PM, but I was in Spain, thoroughly embarrassed, and remember Farage being all over Sky News calling it ‘Independence Day’.
For a country that makes its own laws, has its own currency, still measures largely in imperial and drives on the left I’ve always wondered what, or who, we were to be independent from.

[Manofpride]

You’re right about Johnson, MA...he and Gove were probably more preoccupied with which of them was going to be the next PM, but I was in Spain, thoroughly embarrassed, and remember Farage being all over Sky News calling it ‘Independence Day’.
For a country that makes its own laws, has its own currency, still measures largely in imperial and drives on the left I’ve always wondered what, or who, we were to be independent from.

It wouldn't surprise me if you and Swale take your lottery tickets back when you don't win!

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Manofpride;39083381]It wouldn't surprise me if you and Swale take your lottery tickets back when you don't win! [/QUOTE.

LOL...and it would surprise me even less if you tried to claim the prize with a dodgy ticket and only just over a third of the numbers.

[Andy_Faber]

Always keen to find a new angle on unlocking this puzzle, I'm following a facebook group which has been going since 2015 and proposed/proposes deciding Brexit based on votes for/against Die Hard being a Christmas movie or not. The two problems with this are 1) the vote has been almost evenly split since day 1, and 2) some of the vitriol from those contributing puts Swale and TTR to shame. Maybe the world is heading for eternity as a 1-1 draw

Slightly more seriously, a good point just made by someone on Sky in response to the 'will of the people' argument, was that its ironic that Remoaners don't class 37% as a mandate for Brexit but DO class under 10% (apparently that's the number) wanting a second vote as a mandate for one

[swaledale]

Always keen to find a new angle on unlocking this puzzle, I'm following a facebook group which has been going since 2015 and proposed/proposes deciding Brexit based on votes for/against Die Hard being a Christmas movie or not. The two problems with this are 1) the vote has been almost evenly split since day 1, and 2) some of the vitriol from those contributing puts Swale and TTR to shame. Maybe the world is heading for eternity as a 1-1 draw

Slightly more seriously, a good point just made by someone on Sky in response to the 'will of the people' argument, was that its ironic that Remoaners don't class 37% as a mandate for Brexit but DO class under 10% (apparently that's the number) wanting a second vote as a mandate for one

Under 10% where did Sky get that bit of fake news from? There were 650,000 on the march in London demonstrating for a second vote.

On the other hand this latest bit of research indicates that there is a strong groundswell towards remain, now that the stark truth of what leave actually means.

More than 100 Westminster constituencies that voted to leave the EU have now switched their support to Remain, according to a stark new analysis.

In findings that could have a significant impact on the parliamentary battle of Brexit later this year, the study concludes that most seats in Britain now contain a majority of voters who want to stay in the EU.

The analysis, one of the most comprehensive assessments of Brexit sentiment since the referendum, suggests the shift has been driven by doubts among Labour voters who backed Leave.

As a result, the trend is starkest in the north of England and Wales – Labour heartlands in which Brexit sentiment appears to be changing. The development will heap further pressure on Jeremy Corbyn to soften the party’s opposition to reconsidering Britain’s EU departure.

Which rather puts a different slant on things. My feeling is that there is a 60-40 split in favour of remain now.

[swaledale]

Can't find it now but there has been a list doing the rounds on FB for over 2 years now. It's a list of UK factories that have moved abroad allegedly with the aid of EU subsidies.

This page seems to debunk that list..... http://ilovetheeu.co.uk/trade/no-the...out-of-the-uk/

I can tell you that a number of Uk based firms, especially in the financial service sector which is a bigger contributor to GDP and tax revenues than manufacturing have been moving or planning to move large parts of their operations abroad. Its increased my pension pot massively and I should thank messrs Johnson and Farage for putting some lucrative business my way.

[swaledale]

Memory. A strange thing. My memory of the morning after the night before is that Farage (you know, that chap who will get a 73K a year pension once his seat in Brussels terminates in March......) and Boris were conspicuous by their absence and, when they finally did appear, they were subdued, quiet, flat and everything but the elated jerk we all expected. They did not look at all happy.

Because they got what they said they wanted and hadn't a plan or even a ****ing clue what to do next, apart from further their political ambitions.

[mistaram]

Well in Northern Ireland 1.2 million votes Remain I bet they don't again