OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

I think Brexiters are exactly who you meant, why would you refer to Remainers as confused? But I'll accept your different interpretation of your comment, after all you are a Ram not a politician

As for an agenda, I don't have one (or at least not the one you think) but I do like to tease out the issues, its just a shame there is only you and the incoherant, inaccurate Swale with similar POVs

Incoherent, from someone who criticises the BBC on the basis they allow the expression of views that don't concur with yours? Thats laughable and reflects your rather confused and incoherent views which you hold!

Inaccurate? really, when you spout so much inaccurate tosh based on your narrow view of the world, how on earth would you know? But do enlighten me as to where I've been inaccurate?

As for Patriotism, well its obviously unpatriotic to want a country to thrive, for its people to have the best opportunities they can and to understand that being isolationist in this age is unrealistic, globalisation has happened, no amount of wishing for the past is going to make it come back.

[swaledale]

I can guess what's behind the ****s and thanks for keeping up your record of resorting to name calling within a few sentences of making your return. OJ and yourself come from a very similar mould

Don't come holier than thou with me! You called an intelligent commentator, who has more of a clue than you have of the situation a ****, so the sobriquet is appropriate!

You show exactly where you stand when you make snide remarks about diversity as if its a bad thing that there is an attempt to have a level playing field for people who have talent. ye gods your hypocrisy is so nauseating.

[Andy_Faber]

Don't come holier than thou with me! You called an intelligent commentator, who has more of a clue than you have of the situation a ****, so the sobriquet is appropriate!

You show exactly where you stand when you make snide remarks about diversity as if its a bad thing that there is an attempt to have a level playing field for people who have talent. ye gods your hypocrisy is so nauseating.

Take a breath Swale and then take some grace under pressure lessons off Ramanag.

Have you resolved that GDP conundrum yet?

[swaledale]

Yes Swale. That is exactly the point.

ACTING IN PARTNERSHIP ECONOMICALLY!!

There is absolutely no need for this headlong rush to a US of E that started as a walk in the 60s, moved slowly through the gears via trot, pace and canter, where it is now and before too long will become a fully fledged gallop. No need at all.

The US of E is merely a part of globalisation. Rules, regs and Laws designed to put ever more money and power in the hands of a very few people to the detriment of the rest of us.

Merkel has said so lauding the arrival of a NWO as something good and great which, IMO, it isn't.

Funny that as EU members we have critica vetos which would keep us from that path, but hey ho - when the right leaning deregulatory low wage low tax and **** the majority of the population have their way, then and only then may people think mm the EU wasn't so bad after all - leaving it doesn't solve any problems, it creates more.

[swaledale]

Take a breath Swale and then take some grace under pressure lessons off Ramanag.

Have you resolved that GDP conundrum yet?

Not a conundrum, based the decline of sterling, lack of investment in the UK and the shifting of thousands of jobs and economic activity to other countries and the source is a ell placed person in a major financial institution whom I deal with every day. The blow to the Uk economy which would not have happened but for the Brexit vote is a 17% reduction.

AS for grace lessons of Anag, WTF? Why not take a breath yourself and think before you post?

[Andy_Faber]

I've really got to take you to task over the sh*t you're shovelling on GDP here Swale. I don't think you understand what the supposed 17% your possibly real contact gave you means, and whether you do or not, pitching it into a conversation with no context is just a Boy Scout version of project fear. It does nothing without context other than to spread uncertainty, so lets go back to basics and work out whether you mean 17 percentage POINTS ie the GDP rise would have been nearly 21% over ten quarters without Brexit (impossible), or 17% of the increase so 4.5% over the time period instead of 3.9 (possible, and yes sort of concerning, but also a bit lost in the rounding when the hot summer for instance had a significant impact on GDP too). Or something else

[MadAmster]

Swale. You miss the point. Globalisation is a forerunner of the NWO. Merkel has recently stated that the EU is moving towards the NWO. More and more money and power in fewer and fewer hands and the rest of us end up working more hours per week for more years prior to retiring if retirement is still an option in 20 years time.

No criticism of particular countries or particular religions regardless of how wrong they may be in what they do. Total control of your life out of your hands. That is where we are heading.

THAT is where the elite, the 1%, the multinational companies want the likes of you and I. THAT is what I don't want to happen to my kids and any grandkid I might have at some time in the future. THAT is why I am totally against a political EU but in favour of a free trade area. I am surprised that you haven't gleaned that from my previous posts on this matter. Return to 1991 pre the Maastricht agreement and I would happily stay in the EEC. Destroying the EU is the way to ensure our offspring having the sort of freedom I had when I started work almost 50 years ago.

[MadAmster]

According to the beeb, Mayhem has said Parliament is more likely to block Brexit than sanction a no Deal Brexit.

I have said all along I will believe Brexit when I see it happen..........

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46856149?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=facebook

[ramAnag]

I think Brexiters are exactly who you meant, why would you refer to Remainers as confused? But I'll accept your different interpretation of your comment, after all you are a Ram not a politician

As for an agenda, I don't have one (or at least not the one you think) but I do like to tease out the issues, its just a shame there is only you and the incoherant, inaccurate Swale with similar POVs

Hang on Andy. Having accused me of arrogance, isn’t it just a tad arrogant of you to start telling me what I meant?
Pot, kettle and black springs to mind here and to clarify...MoP suggested, ‘the people have spoken’ and I challenged that by saying the people are confused and divided. That is just a truism and I wasn’t referring simply to Leavers/Brexiteers at all but to the ‘people’ who imo are the whole of the electorate including those now old enough to vote who were not allowed to in 2016. They are divided and confused as never before.

My objection to Warnock’s statement was his ‘to hell with the rest of the World’ comment. He revealed himself as a small minded, isolationist, politically selfish and stupid individual who was seeking to identify himself with the Brexiteer cause imo. Watch the clip and see if you can interpret it any differently.

Without having the gift of second sight I think it ill becomes you to start telling me what I actually meant and - despite your protestations - you do appear to have an agenda which appears to repeatedly manifest itself as trying to discredit your perception of Remainer arrogance. The irony is that despite the ongoing hostilities between you and Swale you will both, given the opportunity, be voting the same way. Now if that isn’t confused I don’t know what is.

P.S. Please don’t introduce me into your ongoing argument with Swale. For what it’s worth, although we may have a different style, I agree pretty much 100% with Swales’ comments above. His style may be more direct and arguably less subtle than mine, but I doubt there is anyone more knowledgeable about the implications of Brexit on this particular forum than him.

[MadAmster]

Food for thought?

[AdiSalisbury]

According to the beeb, Mayhem has said Parliament is more likely to block Brexit than sanction a no Deal Brexit.

I have said all along I will believe Brexit when I see it happen..........

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics...ource=facebook

Always been a concern, and very damaging if such a scenario were to ensue.

[Andy_Faber]

I apologise for putting words in your mouth, I’ll still go for ill-informed not confused though.

[ramAnag]

Always been a concern, and very damaging if such a scenario were to ensue.

‘Very damaging’, Adi. Why?

[AdiSalisbury]

‘Very damaging’, Adi. Why?

It would remove all confidence in our politicians, both in government and opposition, from both a voter perspective and an international one, regardless of the leave / remain aspect.

[ramAnag]

I apologise for putting words in your mouth, I’ll still go for ill-informed not confused though.

Apology accepted. Although I’m not sure you were ‘putting words in my mouth’. Rather you were changing the whole meaning of what I was saying in order to add credence to your view of Remainers.
My view is that the whole electorate - aka ‘the people’ - are confused as a result of being hopelessly and deliberately ill informed at the time of the original Referendum.
There are doubtless reasons in favour of voting Leave...not the least of which are concerns about the absence of democracy within the EU.
Equally, a significant proportion - not by any means all - of those who voted Leave did so for more dubious, ill founded and ill informed reasons, a view which is only strengthened by talk of rioting in the streets if Brexit is cancelled and the intimidation and violence aimed at the likes of Anna Soubry, Gina Miller and Jo Cox. The people responsible for such actions may not have been typical Leavers but they were, without any shadow of doubt...Brexiteers.
Likewise I suspect there to be some nonsense spoken by Remainers, although obviously, imo, not as much.
That is why, together with the absolute failure of all but a small minority of MP’s to set a good example and offer genuine clarification, I say the electorate is confused.
We would also do well to recognise that the electorate contains a sizeable number of people who haven’t a clue as far as anything beyond basic numeracy and literacy is concerned. We are all too often a nation that never reads the small print and fails to understand the basics of basic domestic financial planning, APR and interest rates etc...so how the hell was an informed decision ever to be reached over anything as complex as the economic implications of EU membership?
I imagine you’ll now accuse me of being patronising but it’s true. The electorate was never a fit and proper body to reach a decision on what was asked...and then it was lied to!
Now we are in the absurd position where it is beginning to look as if the only way out of this mess is to have a second referendum.
The only thing that has improved is that people are genuinely, I believe, now more aware of the implications and consequences that leaving the EU is likely to have.
With that in mind a second referendum, though far from satisfactory, is, imo, a greater exercise in democracy rather than the challenge to the democratic process that Adi seems to imply.