OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Virtually everyone has the ‘time’ to sign a petition Andy.
Perhaps it is worth reconsidering that so many of the ‘university population’ you describe did not have the same opportunity to vote in the initial Referendum as those ‘workers’ you contrast them with.
It is notoriously difficult for full time students to register to vote particularly when that vote is being made at or towards the end of the summer term precisely when there is uncertainty about whether they’ll be based back at home or at ‘Uni’.
When a vote is so crucial, so close and has such long term implications for the young I believe this is a bigger issue than whether ‘manual workers’ have the time and inclination to sign or start a petition.

And that reinforces the divisions we have. You make excuses for students, I make excuses for manual workers. But when all said and done, petitions and marches make little difference, it will be parliament or the ballot box that decides. With so many of the original voters entrenched in their views, it may be that the result of any second referendum will hinge on which one of these two populations can be motivated to vote for the first time. Not an outcome I'd like to bet on

[Geoff Parkstone]

Virtually everyone has the ‘time’ to sign a petition Andy.
Perhaps it is worth reconsidering that so many of the ‘university population’ you describe did not have the same opportunity to vote in the initial Referendum as those ‘workers’ you contrast them with.
It is notoriously difficult for full time students to register to vote particularly when that vote is being made at or towards the end of the summer term precisely when there is uncertainty about whether they’ll be based back at home or at ‘Uni’.
When a vote is so crucial, so close and has such long term implications for the young I believe this is a bigger issue than whether ‘manual workers’ have the time and inclination to sign or start a petition.

More to the point, more than half of those students e-signing today were not able to vote 2 3/4 years ago then they were 15 or 16

[ramAnag]

And that reinforces the divisions we have. You make excuses for students, I make excuses for manual workers. But when all said and done, petitions and marches make little difference, it will be parliament or the ballot box that decides. With so many of the original voters entrenched in their views, it may be that the result of any second referendum will hinge on which one of these two populations can be motivated to vote for the first time. Not an outcome I'd like to bet on

I’m not making excuses for anyone Andy...I’m just stating a fact. Our system of government is outdated and archaic imo and the same is true of our voting systems.
It isn’t the easiest thing for students to join the electoral role and that situation is exacerbated at times like late June when some courses may have finished while others haven’t.
If any Referendum is to be considered an appropriate way to resolve such complex issues as our membership of the EU then surely we have to aim for 100% participation and make sure that those with dual addresses and other less straightforward domestic arrangements are not marginalised by the voting system.

[Andy_Faber]

I’m not making excuses for anyone Andy...I’m just stating a fact. Our system of government is outdated and archaic imo and the same is true of our voting systems.
It isn’t the easiest thing for students to join the electoral role and that situation is exacerbated at times like late June when some courses may have finished while others haven’t.
If any Referendum is to be considered an appropriate way to resolve such complex issues as our membership of the EU then surely we have to aim for 100% participation and make sure that those with dual addresses and other less straightforward domestic arrangements are not marginalised by the voting system.

Thats an excuse! I'm my slight point though was there are 'classes' of people who are more and less inclined to indulge in token shows of support, the acid test (if there is another vote) will be how many of that 12 million who didn't vote last time can be mobilised by the opposing sides. Last time, it was clear that Leave hit the spot, Remain missed so many open goals. I guess Remain will be a bit more switched on in a re run

Regarding compulsory voting, be careful what you wish for, most literature points to such a device favouring your nemesis, 'The Right', in times of high conflict

[ramAnag]

Thats an excuse! I'm my slight point though was there are 'classes' of people who are more and less inclined to indulge in token shows of support, the acid test (if there is another vote) will be how many of that 12 million who didn't vote last time can be mobilised by the opposing sides. Last time, it was clear that Leave hit the spot, Remain missed so many open goals. I guess Remain will be a bit more switched on in a re run

Regarding compulsory voting, be careful what you wish for, most literature points to such a device favouring your nemesis, 'The Right', in times of high conflict

At the risk of becoming ‘Pythonesque’, it’s not an excuse it’s an explanation.
I agree, last time ‘Leave’ got their act together and ‘Remain’ were horribly complacent.
If there is a next time things will be different...the electorate as a whole will be better informed and less complacent which is what all Brexiteers, from Farage to Adi, are fearful of.
I’m aware of the dangers, which probably also extend to PR, but this is the 21st Century and we need a more modern and streamlined system of voting, both inside and outside the chambers of Parliament imo.

[AdiSalisbury]

...the electorate as a whole will be better informed and less complacent which is what all Brexiteers, from Farage to Adi, are fearful of.

I'm not fearful of people being better informed, if they were I wouldn't have to listen to the constant stupidity. Fact is RA, nobody is better informed now, just more brainwashed by mainstream media and armed with the same old tiresome rhetoric that amounts to no more than "my dad is bigger than your dad". Some intelligent debate would be absolute bliss, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not keen on being referred to as a Brexiteer either, I can see the merits and cons of both destinations, but made my choice based on education and experience. If people stopped blindly picking sides and engaged some thought process then maybe we wouldn't have all this ridiculous tit-for-tat that I've lost all patience for.

[Geoff Parkstone]

The last 6 weeks have reinforced my long held belief that Guy Fawkes was absolutely right.

What started 3 years ag as an attempt by a PM to make the public voice heal a split party (which spectacularly backfired) has since become a political football. Politicians are posturing and positioning themselves to gain/retain power in a future election, and appear to totally overlook their responsibility to make decisions and take action.

They are all total ***** and frankly parliament deserves to be dissolved by the monarch and all standing MPs should be debarred from standing for public office ever again.

But that won't get a decision made either.

[ramAnag]

I'm not fearful of people being better informed, if they were I wouldn't have to listen to the constant stupidity. Fact is RA, nobody is better informed now, just more brainwashed by mainstream media and armed with the same old tiresome rhetoric that amounts to no more than "my dad is bigger than your dad". Some intelligent debate would be absolute bliss, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not keen on being referred to as a Brexiteer either, I can see the merits and cons of both destinations, but made my choice based on education and experience. If people stopped blindly picking sides and engaged some thought process then maybe we wouldn't have all this ridiculous tit-for-tat that I've lost all patience for.

No offence intended Adi...although it’s odd that you voted for Brexit and have been one of that cause’s biggest supporters on here ever since but now object to the label of ‘Brexiteer’.

I don’t understand this ‘brainwashed by the mainstream media’ thing. I’d have thought the ‘mainstream media’ tended far more to the Right than the Left so we’ll have to agree to differ, but it seems to me that the electorate can hardly be anything other than better informed given the level of misinformation that formed opinions back in 2016.

My choice too was based on ‘education and experience’ and 90% of what has emerged since the Referendum has only convinced me that my initial choice was the one that favours the best interests of both this country and a united Europe.

I agree about the ‘tit for tat’ nature of politics but that is usually on a Party basis whereas with Brexit the arguments are cross Party and originate largely from one Party’s own particular power struggle. Agree too about the need for intelligent debate, but it’s difficult when there is, imo, absolutely no intelligent case to be made for one of the ‘options’...a ‘no deal’ exit.

[MadAmster]

As you all know, I am very anti EU. You also know why because I have explained it on more than 1 occasion. Personally I would back any party that that took over my idea of the middle road to scrap the EU completely and revert tp the pre Maastricht position of the whole thing being no more than a free trade area with some necessary rules to make it so. Those rules should include the limitations on the banks, the stock market and the money markets that I have also previously explained. Take some of the power back off the 1% and thereby give the man in the street more cash in hand through lower taxes for him and making the multinationals pay what they ought to as opposed to the cosy little pay nowt deals they have made with various governments TMITS will spend that extra creating more jobs, taking people off the dole, increase turnover/profit/dividend for the multinationals and benefitting everybody in the end. Multis and their share holders will take a hit in year 1 but after that it's all roses for everybody.

US of E? Forget it.

[MadAmster]

Reports in the press that May has offered to resign if BoJo et al vote for her deal and get it through.......

....... We get a new PM to handle the negotiations 2.0 including the new trade deal. That new PM will likely be a Remainer who is very likely to do everything possible to please the EU and the UK will be screwed over again.

Is that what people really want?

[MadAmster]

Wishing you all a very happy Brexit Day........ oh, hang on.......... oops!

[ramAnag]

Wishing you all a very happy Brexit Day........ oh, hang on.......... oops!

It’s a lot happier than it might have been!

Hope the spoiled little rich kids of the ERG go the same way as the May Queen and common sense prevails.

[Andy_Faber]

On a positive note:

There's been a lot of noise in the media about the rest of the world considering Britain a laughing stock due to the handling of Brexit. My own and Mrs F's recent globetrotting has revealed that the opinion of UK the country and its inhabitants hasn't changed one bit, its our politicians they are lolling at. My Greek friends especially think its hilarious that their politicians enticed the EU to bail out their crumbling hotchpotch of islands yet ours seemed to have turned all our considerable firepower inwards.

[MadAmster]

Am I the only one wondering when the 650 will stop marching into the valley of death and finally tell the rest of us what they do want as opposed to wjhat they don't want?

We have seen all the arguments over the past 2 years about how close the vote was, and it was. That 63% didn't vote Leave and 67% didn't vote Remain etc etc etc.

Here are a few stats from a different angle. I will point out that, as an expat with no thoughts of returning to stay having been away for 35 years I no axe to grind either way apart from my great dislike of where the EU is heading.

More than 400 MPs (are supposed to, but don't) represent constituencies that voted leave
There are more Labour MP from Leave areas than there are from Remain areas
The same is true of the Tories
More people voted to Leave than voted to remain
More regions voted Leave than voted Remain

The only stat that has Remain ahead is in the House of Commons, it would seem.

Make of that what you will, and I have no doubt you will.

[ramAnag]

Am I the only one wondering when the 650 will stop marching into the valley of death and finally tell the rest of us what they do want as opposed to wjhat they don't want?

We have seen all the arguments over the past 2 years about how close the vote was, and it was. That 63% didn't vote Leave and 67% didn't vote Remain etc etc etc.

Here are a few stats from a different angle. I will point out that, as an expat with no thoughts of returning to stay having been away for 35 years I no axe to grind either way apart from my great dislike of where the EU is heading.

More than 400 MPs (are supposed to, but don't) represent constituencies that voted leave
There are more Labour MP from Leave areas than there are from Remain areas
The same is true of the Tories
More people voted to Leave than voted to remain
More regions voted Leave than voted Remain

The only stat that has Remain ahead is in the House of Commons, it would seem.

Make of that what you will, and I have no doubt you will.

In respectful answer, Amster.

1) Having a ‘great dislike of where the EU is heading’ is hardly the same as having ‘no axe to grind either way’.

2) We live in a Parliamentary Democracy...that is to say we elect our representatives to Parliament every five years believing that they have the time and relative expertise to make informed decisions relating to such complex issues on our behalf.

3) Our democracy was compromised as a result of the People voting on the basis of lies, misinformation and electoral rule breaking.

4) The issue of Brexit was always far too complex to be treated as a binary choice. Since the Referendum many people have realised that and those in favour of leaving have proved incapable of making their case or displaying any leadership.

5) Our electorate equates to around 49 million. Of those 17.4 million voted to Leave. You do the maths.

6) Why are you so bothered? By your own admission you’re going to be living in the EU whatever happens and from what I’ve seen Holland, in the heart of the EU, seems a great place to live.