OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

Do you live in a nice lovely place in the country like Ramanag?

I don't know if I live in a nice lovely place in the country like Ramanag..... I don't know where Ramanag is.

[Geoff Parkstone]

It's in Karnataka, India

[ramAnag]

FFS. Does not warrant much else.

Okay...so let’s abandon all the ffs, anger and name calling and try and introduce some objectivity.

Below are the major reasons, briefly put, for me wanting to remain in the EU.

1. Employment. Approx 2.5 million people are employed in the UK as a direct consequence of EU trade. That’s around 10% of people in work in the UK. We can’t afford the consequence of losing those jobs.

2. Trade. The EU accounts for about 50% of our exports. Membership gives us the right to trade freely with a market of 500 million people throughout Europe. Multi nationals build factories in this country precisely because of the access we have. Why would we turn our back on all this?

3. Economy. The Treasury has predicted a fall of 6% in GDP, an 18% fall in house prices (mixed blessing I concede), and a very significant increase in the cost of living if and when we leave.

4. Rights. Amongst all the red tape arguments let’s not forget...the EU has done more than any UK Government to establish equal pay conditions, maternity rights, child care rights and health and safety entitlements.

5. Security. With one or two (Balkan/Irish) exceptions a previously ‘explosive’ continent has experienced its longest period of continuous peace in history since 1945. This is in part due to the establishment of the Common Market/EEC/EU because basically countries don’t tend to go to war with trading partners. Sharing intelligence, policing each other’s borders and the establishment of the European Arrest Warrant also appear to be good and beneficial arrangements to me.

6. Holidays. Leaving the EU will increase the cost of holidays. Air fares and the cost of holiday insurance will rise. There will be no reciprocal health care arrangements and the £ is likely to fall - as it did drastically and dramatically immediately after the Referendum - making everything more expensive. In addition, driving in Europe will become a whole lot more complicated.

7. Changes are necessary within the EU...you can only bring about change within an organisation by being a part of it. By leaving we lose all control over how the EU progresses.

Above are just a few of the more pressing reasons for why I want to Remain but if you don’t believe me then here is a list of others opposed to Brexit.

Governor of the Bank of England, Institute for Fiscal Studies, CBI, Theresa May (originally), Jeremy Hunt (originally), Chief Execs of M&S, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, and IBM, the leaders of the Lib Dems, Green Party, SNP and Plaid Cymru, Martin Lewis, Chief Exec of the NHS, Director General of the WTO, Greenpeace, Director of Europol.

I suspect they know a great deal more than any of us but I’ve at least tried to give my objective layman’s view of reasons for staying.
Hopefully the more vociferous Brexiteers on here - MoP, Angry, Adi and Tricky - might give their own reasons for leaving while trying to be equally objective.
That way the ‘debate’ might just progress beyond the level of insults and cheap shots.

[mistaram]

It's in Karnataka, India

Geoff I make that 4,670 miles are you close neighbours

[Geoff Parkstone]

Parkstone is near Bournemouth, so I doubt it 😏

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ramanag: your points all have validity although the more expensive holiday one is a bit of a reach. If less people could afford to go to Spain etc, it would be good for the domestic tourism of the South Coast etc!!

I'm sure brexiteers could dredge up an equally impressive list of "figures" who are pro Brexit, but I will leave that to the more passionate leavers.

I think the problem I (and many others) have with the EU does not revolve around those aspects you note, but rather the ways they is achieved. The obvious one being that your typical leaver resents the freedom of movement of labour that is inherent in free trade. There is a natural drift of labour towards the stronger economies, especially at the unskilled / low skilled end of the spectrum. This pressurises resources and infrastructure etc etc, I won't expand this further as it is a self evident truth.

In my view, everything you espouse represent desirable ends, the problem is that the EU don't want to stop there. An economic union is an advantage to all, stretching it towards a political union for me is a step too far without massive changes in accountability and the democratic nature of thee institutions. The EU structure is the inverse of the UK structure - the unelected commission rules the roost: a body that is neither voted in by the people nor accountable to it.

This body is leading the thrust towards greater political union, common currencies, taxes, army etc etc. With the diverse group of countries in the EU this is doomed to failure as, in particular, different attitudes exist regarding the concept of, and payment of, tax.

We probably may be guilty of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but it's some pretty rancid bathwater.

[ramAnag]

With respect, seriously, GP...you aren’t really the ‘audience’. You have a balanced, if at times mischievous, view of the EU and Brexit. You invariably make your case well and I do accept most of the criticisms you offer above of the EU.

Like Andy and ‘Amster you seem to me to fall into the category of being aware of the shortcomings of the EU but unconvinced that Brexit, especially in a ‘hard’/no deal form, is the answer.

That though is not really the point. Along with Swale and one or two occasional others I am probably the most committed Remainer on the forum. I have stated my case which contains little of your greater economic expertise but is a relatively intelligent layman’s case.
Rather than just pick holes in my reasoning or let things degenerate into schoolyard squabbles I’d just be interested to hear the reasoning behind those who are determined to leave.

There seems little doubt to me, and the very significant others I’ve mentioned, that Brexit is going to make us all worse off for a considerable period of time. I’ve given my reasons why...be interested in a proper alternative response which actually justifies the ‘Leave’ stance from anyone of those who continue to advocate it.

[AngryRam]

Okay...so let’s abandon all the ffs, anger and name calling and try and introduce some objectivity.

Below are the major reasons, briefly put, for me wanting to remain in the EU.

1. Employment. Approx 2.5 million people are employed in the UK as a direct consequence of EU trade. That’s around 10% of people in work in the UK. We can’t afford the consequence of losing those jobs.

2. Trade. The EU accounts for about 50% of our exports. Membership gives us the right to trade freely with a market of 500 million people throughout Europe. Multi nationals build factories in this country precisely because of the access we have. Why would we turn our back on all this?

3. Economy. The Treasury has predicted a fall of 6% in GDP, an 18% fall in house prices (mixed blessing I concede), and a very significant increase in the cost of living if and when we leave.

4. Rights. Amongst all the red tape arguments let’s not forget...the EU has done more than any UK Government to establish equal pay conditions, maternity rights, child care rights and health and safety entitlements.

5. Security. With one or two (Balkan/Irish) exceptions a previously ‘explosive’ continent has experienced its longest period of continuous peace in history since 1945. This is in part due to the establishment of the Common Market/EEC/EU because basically countries don’t tend to go to war with trading partners. Sharing intelligence, policing each other’s borders and the establishment of the European Arrest Warrant also appear to be good and beneficial arrangements to me.

6. Holidays. Leaving the EU will increase the cost of holidays. Air fares and the cost of holiday insurance will rise. There will be no reciprocal health care arrangements and the £ is likely to fall - as it did drastically and dramatically immediately after the Referendum - making everything more expensive. In addition, driving in Europe will become a whole lot more complicated.

7. Changes are necessary within the EU...you can only bring about change within an organisation by being a part of it. By leaving we lose all control over how the EU progresses.

Above are just a few of the more pressing reasons for why I want to Remain but if you don’t believe me then here is a list of others opposed to Brexit.

Governor of the Bank of England, Institute for Fiscal Studies, CBI, Theresa May (originally), Jeremy Hunt (originally), Chief Execs of M&S, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, and IBM, the leaders of the Lib Dems, Green Party, SNP and Plaid Cymru, Martin Lewis, Chief Exec of the NHS, Director General of the WTO, Greenpeace, Director of Europol.

I suspect they know a great deal more than any of us but I’ve at least tried to give my objective layman’s view of reasons for staying.
Hopefully the more vociferous Brexiteers on here - MoP, Angry, Adi and Tricky - might give their own reasons for leaving while trying to be equally objective.
That way the ‘debate’ might just progress beyond the level of insults and cheap shots.

My post was about Swaledale calling Tricky a neo facist.. But if you want to make it about you, okay.
There is very little fact in your long and boring post. I am sure I have seen it at least 20 times before. It’s been addressed about 100 times.
I gave up at point 1 as it seems you think even when we leave we will never trade with an EU company ever again.. The is so much conjecture in there, expensive holidays, more expensive insurance,

We’re all doomed. Come to London, even with Brexit looming the bloody place Is booming.. New buildings shooting up everywhere. Yet you tell me the end of the world is 31-10-19.

I’m all for cheap shots by the way, you’re an easy target. But neo facist ffs.. The guy has lost the plot and is now quite frankly embarrassing.. Here I am siding with a Forest fan, the quicker we leave and get back to having nothing in common the better.

[ramAnag]

‘Make it all about me’? What are you talking about?
You’re the one who’s reappeared after months of no comment moaning about the fact that there’s still a Brexit thread, the very thread that has generated over 4500 responses.
Then when an attempt is made to have some objective, rather than childlike tit for tat, discussion about the pros and cons of Brexit your default position is to immediately start becoming abusive.
You used to be a decent poster Angry, I doubt that you and I would agree about very much - from Keogh to politics - but that, to an extent, is the point of a forum.
My take on things may be right or wrong...unfortunately no one knows your reasons for wanting to remain because having, in your own words, ‘given up at point 1’ your post simply descended into an all too typical child like, name calling little bully boy rant.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I'm not too sure Angry want to remain, rA

[ramAnag]

I'm not too sure Angry want to remain, rA

Fair point...lol. Sure he’ll be able to work out I meant ‘leave’...probably.

[AdiSalisbury]

Easy...

1. Nothing will stop us trading with EU countries, simple supply and demand.

2. See 1, with the removal of restriction and preferential treatment of other EU states to our detriment.

3. Try buying your 1st home down south. Despite having a good job, a prospective mortgage would by me half a shed. What's the EU offering me? How accurate have these predictions or guesses been so far? Are they 3 month projections or 3 years? What's behind those numbers?

4. UK employment rights far exceed any other EU state or minimum requirements, they could be reduced or removed at any time whilst we remain a member.

5. We hold a monopoly on intelligence, our ranges and strategic position give us facilities unavailable throughout the rest of the EU states. Even the US rely on our intelligence services and facilities. Security is one of our biggest bargaining chips.

6. EU states rely heavily on our tourism, another bargaining chip.

7. Well be a major stakeholder outside of the organisation and hold plenty of influence, without being bound by club rules.

I'm not a hardliner passionate brexiteer, I just want the best and I believe the opportunity is greater outside. I don't like the tabloid and scaremongering pushed by people profiting from unrest, whether that's Farage or Cable, I see right through it. Unfortunately, we are more vulnerable to fear than positivity, so its easy for these people to prey on the masses.

You should share a beer with angry, we're more welcoming down here than the tube might have you believe!

[ramAnag]

Thanks for the reasoned response Adi. Clearly we don’t agree but at least we’re civil in our disagreement and there’s a clearer understanding of how we view things.
I really don’t understand the ‘tabloid and scaremongering’ point. Would have thought all but the Mirror were very much pro Brexit and I believe Farage, above everyone, is an expert at profiting from unrest and disharmony.
The point though was to try and understand the pro Brexit stance which I think you, MoP, Tricky and the permanently annoyed fella seem to be the biggest supporters of and at least you responded appropriately.
Still like to know how you see leaving the EU as helping the situations you disapprove of though.

[Andy_Faber]

We probably may be guilty of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but it's some pretty rancid bathwater.

That’s a good analogy GP

[AngryRam]

‘Make it all about me’? What are you talking about?
You’re the one who’s reappeared after months of no comment moaning about the fact that there’s still a Brexit thread, the very thread that has generated over 4500 responses.
Then when an attempt is made to have some objective, rather than childlike tit for tat, discussion about the pros and cons of Brexit your default position is to immediately start becoming abusive.
You used to be a decent poster Angry, I doubt that you and I would agree about very much - from Keogh to politics - but that, to an extent, is the point of a forum.
My take on things may be right or wrong...unfortunately no one knows your reasons for wanting to remain because having, in your own words, ‘given up at point 1’ your post simply descended into an all too typical child like, name calling little bully boy rant.

Read.... The first line of my reply.. The swaledale post was not about Brexit. You then bumble on about your agendas again and again and again.
Much prefer to be a ‘used to be a good poster’ rather then never was a good poster.
I believe when this thread originally started I made my points quite clear, responded to valid counter points raised.. You are just regurgitating the same old points.. It’s like your stuck in the 80s.
Sorry for returning to this thread, if you read back my point was not that there was still a Brexit thread just that you would be spouting the same old diatribe.. Boom 100% right.. Maybe I should have asked for your permission to post on your thread?