OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Not the percentage chestnut again?

Every election/vote/referendum ever must be null and void then.

[MadAmster]

Not the percentage chestnut again?

Every election/vote/referendum ever must be null and void then.

Geoff, exhausted by the continual positng by some that more people didn't vote Leave than did, posted "because the majority voted for it".

I thought I would, again, post the 2 figures for "didn't vote for" to give balance and hopefully show that "to every invalid argument there is an equally invalid and opposite argument".

We should all understand that the whole process is currently out of our hands and in those of the government of the day. At some point in the not too distant future they will either cancel Brexit altogether, Leave with an in, out, shake it all about deal not too dissimilat to May's deal or go full on No Deal Brexit.

The rest of us will have to put up with that decision unless they arrive at a decision and then put it back to the people in a 2nd (3rd if you count the 70s one as some do) referendum.

No amount of umming and arring and juggling figures that suit our own particular ends will change any of that. In the end, the ruling class will do what they think is best for them.

[ramAnag]

As Geoff so directly put it. Because the majority voted for it.
I mark your post E-
As with all the other false claims by those with ‘greater political significance’ who spouted doom after the referendum. Complete wasters.
How does the saying go? No pain, no gain.

Hmmm...such is your eagerness to discredit you seem to have misunderstood.

Those I described as being of ‘greater political significance’ than yourself and who you now refer to as ‘complete wasters’ were your very own leading Brexiteers...Rees-Mogg and other members of the ERG.

So...it is you who have described the Brexit process as ‘painful’ and they (members of the ERG) who have suggested Brexit may involve fifty years of recovery.

I ask again...remind me why then are we contemplating this...I think you’ll find GP’s answer was tongue in cheek...but when was the last time we all chased a dream of ‘pain’ and slow recovery?

[Geoff Parkstone]

It may have been tongue in cheek but it was also factually accurate....

[Geoff Parkstone]

The last time we chased a dream of pain and slow recovery was 27 May 2019, prior to that 24 May 2014 and we last achieved the dream on 28 May 2007. The subsequent pain was fairly intense and was immediatelh followed by 5 or so years of slow recovery.

Yet we still chase it, for it is our dream

[AngryRam]

Hmmm...such is your eagerness to discredit you seem to have misunderstood.

Those I described as being of ‘greater political significance’ than yourself and who you now refer to as ‘complete wasters’ were your very own leading Brexiteers...Rees-Mogg and other members of the ERG.

So...it is you who have described the Brexit process as ‘painful’ and they (members of the ERG) who have suggested Brexit may involve fifty years of recovery.

I ask again...remind me why then are we contemplating this...I think you’ll find GP’s answer was tongue in cheek...but when was the last time we all chased a dream of ‘pain’ and slow recovery?

I see you ignored your own ignore advice.. Brilliant, I knew you would. You were itching to jump back in.

So we are so desperate now, we are clinging to single words used, to try any back your points.. Sad but hay ho, only to be expected. Trump once said black... Oh the indignation, the racist bigot..

Why does everything have to be taken to either end of the spectrum? Of course there will be painful areas, it would be nieve to assume there will not be areas that will lose out in some way. Please point me in the direction of any communication from the ERG that states that everything everywhere will be roses and everyone will be better off.

One little word and you decide that, that is enough not to go forward with anything. Jesus man (maybe I should have not used the 'man' word, as being a politically correct teacher, I am not sure which is the correct pronoun to use. I don't want to offend your gender), how do you even get up in the morning, you might stub a toe or something.. Did you never take a risk in your life? Mortgage? Anything. Talk about stagnate.

[ramAnag]

I see you ignored your own ignore advice.. Brilliant, I knew you would. You were itching to jump back in.

So we are so desperate now, we are clinging to single words used, to try any back your points.. Sad but hay ho, only to be expected. Trump once said black... Oh the indignation, the racist bigot..

Why does everything have to be taken to either end of the spectrum? Of course there will be painful areas, it would be nieve to assume there will not be areas that will lose out in some way. Please point me in the direction of any communication from the ERG that states that everything everywhere will be roses and everyone will be better off.

One little word and you decide that, that is enough not to go forward with anything. Jesus man (maybe I should have not used the 'man' word, as being a politically correct teacher, I am not sure which is the correct pronoun to use. I don't want to offend your gender), how do you even get up in the morning, you might stub a toe or something.. Did you never take a risk in your life? Mortgage? Anything. Talk about stagnate.

Okay...you misunderstood and now you feel foolish. I get it.

So now you go on the attack...again...with another assortment of bogus assumptions and allegations.

If I ignore you your posts keep referring to me, if I answer you blather on about me not ignoring you and ‘itching to jump back in’.

So let’s just keep it to the issue in hand. We don’t like each other...frankly that bothers me not one jot...but personalised attack based entirely on ignorance is a waste of my time and not what I come on here for, Angry so if that’s what floats your boat take it up with someone else.

If you want to discusss...then discuss...if not, leave me out of it. My question is a simple one...that you and other much more influential advocates of Brexit have suggested that the process will be ‘painful’ and is likely to necessitate a half century of recovery.

Why is that a good idea?

To introduce a football context...if a new owner took over at Derby tomorrow and announced how privileged he felt to be running the club but warned that it would most likely take another fifty years to get us back to the top flight...how thrilled would you be?

[AngryRam]

Okay...you misunderstood and now you feel foolish. I get it.

So now you go on the attack...again...with another assortment of bogus assumptions and allegations.

If I ignore you your posts keep referring to me, if I answer you blather on about me not ignoring you and ‘itching to jump back in’.

So let’s just keep it to the issue in hand. We don’t like each other...frankly that bothers me not one jot...but personalised attack based entirely on ignorance is a waste of my time and not what I come on here for, Angry so if that’s what floats your boat take it up with someone else.

If you want to discusss...then discuss...if not, leave me out of it. My question is a simple one...that you and other much more influential advocates of Brexit have suggested that the process will be ‘painful’ and is likely to necessitate a half century of recovery.

Why is that a good idea?

To introduce a football context...if a new owner took over at Derby tomorrow and announced how privileged he felt to be running the club but warned that it would most likely take another fifty years to get us back to the top flight...how thrilled would you be?

I would never feel foolish responding to you Sweetpea. It cheers me up. Low hanging fruit i'm afraid.

I would wait the 50 years, if it meant my club still existed and the following 50 years we won everything. At least my kids would enjoy it. It's not all about you!! What's your point?
Are you saying you would sacrifice long term stability for short term gain? Is that what you are all about? Gotta have it now mentality?

Bring something new to the discussion and we can discuss. Bloody hell even Swaledale and I nearly agreed on a few points. He lost the plot eventually but I feel we had a moment.. Touching really.

F+

[Geoff Parkstone]

To introduce a football context...if a new owner took over at Derby tomorrow and announced how privileged he felt to be running the club but warned that it would most likely take another fifty years to get us back to the top flight...how thrilled would you be?

Actually see my post a couple up where I make the same pain and suffering analogy, yet still we support.

I think the fundamental difficulty with your comparison is that you have to assume that Derby were presently in catastrophic management, and were about to be merged at board level with Forest, Chesterfield, Mansfield, Notts County and several east midlands minor teams. All our TV revenue would be taken of us and allocated to Spennymoor, Macclesfield and a few local clubs that we are trying to persuade to join us, or other weak clubs in our "alliance" to help bring their standards up.

We also have to consider that all our fans would be incorporated with Forest fans and others that we were merged with to form a single common fan army (maybe even a barmy one) and that we would be forced to take on players from local non league sides who would have equal rights to play for us regardless of ability.

We would also be forced to open our expensively developed academy to players from all clubs, who could then, having improved their lot, go back to their original clubs after a couple of years of training and improve those clubs - not ours.

There's a bit more to it which may help you appreciate that sometimes pain is worth it to avoid a bigger catastrophe

[AngryRam]

Let me know when it's safe to discuss climate change

[ramAnag]

I would never feel foolish responding to you Sweetpea. It cheers me up. Low hanging fruit i'm afraid.

I would wait the 50 years, if it meant my club still existed and the following 50 years we won everything. At least my kids would enjoy it. It's not all about you!! What's your point?
Are you saying you would sacrifice long term stability for short term gain? Is that what you are all about? Gotta have it now mentality?

Bring something new to the discussion and we can discuss. Bloody hell even Swaledale and I nearly agreed on a few points. He lost the plot eventually but I feel we had a moment.. Touching really.

F+

Okay...amongst all the typical, Angry bluster let’s sieve through that attempt at a response.

1) Yet again you haven’t answered the question...why is it a good idea?

2) ‘I would wait fifty years...at least my kids would enjoy it’. Who are you kidding? You’re about sixty...in another half century I’d guess your kids are likely to be of pensionable age...you’ve just sentenced them to 50 years of underachievement and struggle. Great plan!

3) ‘Gotta have it now mentality’...we had it! How else do you explain the position of this tiny island country being amongst the wealthiest nations of the World. We were doing okay and we were achieving that as long term major players within the EU...that situation is now being jeopardised by an idea that even its own supporters suggest will involve pain and the need for fifty years of recovery. Great swap!

4) ‘He (Swale) lost the plot’. No he didn’t...that’s just delusional on your part. He answered rationally and logically. For a brief period you too were untypically lucid before resorting to yet more tiresome, personalised bluster.

Finally...it’s difficult to come up with a non repetitive argument when no answers are forthcoming from the advocates of something I, rightly or wrongly, regard as being immensely damaging to our country.

Of course I may be wrong however I still await an explanation from you for how something that was initially described as a panacea for all our economic ills but is now likely to lead to fifty years of economic pain can still be a good idea.

You support it...you answer it...but a ‘grown up’ response would make a welcome change so please don’t waste my time with your infantile and failed attempts at point scoring.

[ramAnag]

To introduce a football context...if a new owner took over at Derby tomorrow and announced how privileged he felt to be running the club but warned that it would most likely take another fifty years to get us back to the top flight...how thrilled would you be?

Actually see my post a couple up where I make the same pain and suffering analogy, yet still we support.

I think the fundamental difficulty with your comparison is that you have to assume that Derby were presently in catastrophic management, and were about to be merged at board level with Forest, Chesterfield, Mansfield, Notts County and several east midlands minor teams. All our TV revenue would be taken of us and allocated to Spennymoor, Macclesfield and a few local clubs that we are trying to persuade to join us, or other weak clubs in our "alliance" to help bring their standards up.

We also have to consider that all our fans would be incorporated with Forest fans and others that we were merged with to form a single common fan army (maybe even a barmy one) and that we would be forced to take on players from local non league sides who would have equal rights to play for us regardless of ability.

We would also be forced to open our expensively developed academy to players from all clubs, who could then, having improved their lot, go back to their original clubs after a couple of years of training and improve those clubs - not ours.

There's a bit more to it which may help you appreciate that sometimes pain is worth it to avoid a bigger catastrophe

Geoff...maybe you’re overthinking the analogy, albeit cleverly.

I take your points and they are well made if a little fanciful, but ultimately the only ‘catastrophe’ facing the UK is the entirely home made and self inflicted one named Brexit, imo and the bottom line remains...who in their right mind, at either DCFC or UK level would sign up to something which may or may not produce some sort of unquantifiable harvest in fifty years time?

Even you at your most mischievous must recognise that the goal posts have been moved since June 2016.

[AngryRam]

Okay...amongst all the typical, Angry bluster let’s sieve through that attempt at a response.

1) Yet again you haven’t answered the question...why is it a good idea?

2) ‘I would wait fifty years...at least my kids would enjoy it’. Who are you kidding? You’re about sixty...in another half century I’d guess your kids are likely to be of pensionable age...you’ve just sentenced them to 50 years of underachievement and struggle. Great plan!

3) ‘Gotta have it now mentality’...we had it! How else do you explain the position of this tiny island country being amongst the wealthiest nations of the World. We were doing okay and we were achieving that as long term major players within the EU...that situation is now being jeopardised by an idea that even its own supporters suggest will involve pain and the need for fifty years of recovery. Great swap!

4) ‘He (Swale) lost the plot’. No he didn’t...that’s just delusional on your part. He answered rationally and logically. For a brief period you too were untypically lucid before resorting to yet more tiresome, personalised bluster.

Finally...it’s difficult to come up with a non repetitive argument when no answers are forthcoming from the advocates of something I, rightly or wrongly, regard as being immensely damaging to our country.

Of course I may be wrong however I still await an explanation from you for how something that was initially described as a panacea for all our economic ills but is now likely to lead to fifty years of economic pain can still be a good idea.

You support it...you answer it...but a ‘grown up’ response would make a welcome change so please don’t waste my time with your infantile and failed attempts at point scoring.

I only do infantile. You know that. Cockney bovver boy aint I.

1. We've answered the bloody why question but yet again you fail to understand the points. Numerous people have made their points about leaving but you it appears won't be satisfied until someone says what you want to hear.

2. You came up with a ridiculous analogy and all you have got is my kids will be about 60. Really!! Seriously get a life man.

3. It was a sarky comment to said ridiculous analogy.

4. I think you will find that Swaley did revert to type.

Point scoring is easy with you.. Way too easy.

Detention.

[ramAnag]

I only do infantile. You know that. Cockney bovver boy aint I.

1. We've answered the bloody why question but yet again you fail to understand the points. Numerous people have made their points about leaving but you it appears won't be satisfied until someone says what you want to hear.

2. You came up with a ridiculous analogy and all you have got is my kids will be about 60. Really!! Seriously get a life man.

3. It was a sarky comment to said ridiculous analogy.

4. I think you will find that Swaley did revert to type.

Point scoring is easy with you.. Way too easy.

Detention.

Sorry...along with being a privileged, ultra left, cardigan and slipper wearing, pipe smoking piece of low hanging fruit etc, I must be really, really thick...so bear with me...

I know there is talk of the EU being at fault for being undemocratic...I know there are concerns about the future possibility of an EU army...I even understand your personal concerns about other poorer countries being too dependent on the wealthier ones but where oh where have you (or ‘we’ as you now seem to be describing yourself) answered that crucial question?

How is it a good idea for us to enter a world of national financial pain for a period that even your own supporters have suggested may last for up to half a century?

Give it another go...spell it out...patronise me...sell it to the electorate. No more threats about the 17.8m rising up if they don’t get their way, no more half arsed insults, no more wannabe a teacher and pretend to mark people’s ‘work’. Just explain - in really, really little words if it helps - how is setting this country back financially to the extent that it may, according to Rees-Mogg (no privilege there) and others, take half a century to recover whilst making us ever more isolated...going to benefit our nation?

The floor is yours...no sidetracking, no pontificating...just indulge me this one last time and answer. How?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I could throw into the debate the fact that staying could set us back 75 years! Who can tell, but against that setting 50 isn't bad. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that without Brexit all would be rosy in the garden.

This decision has always been about trading off negatives. The question is, will the pain you allude to be more or less negative than existing under an undemocratic autocratic and corrupt institution that is pursuing objectives that are ultra vires its own initial intent that we subscribed to under Heath.

The trade benefits (or loss of them) and probable economic downside of leaving vs the institutional freedoms and loss of independence of staying.

What is greatly ironic is that you as a self confessed Liberal prefer the options of economic advantage as if a capitalist. Equally the more capitalist leaning Angry is supporting the Liberal freedoms of self determination and independent thought.

Strange fruit....