OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Is not the sovereignty of Parliament central to our democratic system then GP?

Cummings was the man behind Brexit and is a ‘mate’ of Johnson and the ERG. I think it is unusual for you to be so naive as to think of him as being in an advisory rather than decision making role.

Neither Cummings nor Banks have any democratic credibility whatsoever and yet I suspect they are two of the greatest driving forces behind any form of Brexit.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Parliament is part of our democratic system, not the B all and end of it

[ramAnag]

Parliament is part of our democratic system, not the B all and end of it

Indeed, but it’s difficult to understand quite how a Parliamentary Democracy has any credibility or viability without a Parliament.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Given the performance of parliament over the last 3 years I'm not sure it's added much to the cause of democracy.

[ramAnag]

Given the performance of parliament over the last 3 years I'm not sure it's added much to the cause of democracy.

Can’t argue too much with that, although I think it’s been a lot longer than three years.

[swaledale]

Given the performance of parliament over the last 3 years I'm not sure it's added much to the cause of democracy.

Other than its accurately reflected the mood of the country, which is or at least on the basis of the 37% who voted, split pretty evenly down the middle. So one could say parliament is being properly represented!

People seem to like it when "big bold decisions" are made which though ignoring convention, reality, economics or other such trifles seem to solve the problem, unfortunately (as no doubt many germans will understand) a politician that makes promises about resolving complicated issues through simplistic spin and empty promises often has rather nasty negative results for a lot of people, including ironically those that supported him or her.

[Trickytreesreds]

Other than its accurately reflected the mood of the country, which is or at least on the basis of the 37% who voted, split pretty evenly down the middle. So one could say parliament is being properly represented!

People seem to like it when "big bold decisions" are made which though ignoring convention, reality, economics or other such trifles seem to solve the problem, unfortunately (as no doubt many germans will understand) a politician that makes promises about resolving complicated issues through simplistic spin and empty promises often has rather nasty negative results for a lot of people, including ironically those that supported him or her.

America 1776/Russia 1917/India 1947/Yugoslavia 1995 all bold decisions. Should they have happened?

Ps, I could counter attack your comparison with the rise of Hitler, by comparing the EU with the rise of the Nazi party. Both formed in exactly the same way.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Or the rise of the Nazi party to that of the Labour party: both formed on a base of socialism, both ultimately anti semitic

[ramAnag]

GP...you know better than that. To say that the Labour Party is ‘ultimately anti Semitic’ is ridiculous. There may well be anti semites within the Labour Party and there are almost certainly members of the Labour Party who are opposed to the Israeli stance on Palestine, but to describe the Labour Party as ‘ultimately anti Semitic’ makes about as much sense as describing all football supporters as hooligans.

Tricky...in what way is the EU - for all its faults - trying to create a united Europe in any way comparable with Hitler and the Nazis attempting a military invasion of Europe and the demonisation and ultimate destruction of one particular race/creed of people?
Seems to me your paranoia and disregard for the truth knows no bounds.

[Trickytreesreds]

GP...you know better than that. To say that the Labour Party is ‘ultimately anti Semitic’ is ridiculous. There may well be anti semites within the Labour Party and there are almost certainly members of the Labour Party who are opposed to the Israeli stance on Palestine, but to describe the Labour Party as ‘ultimately anti Semitic’ makes about as much sense as describing all football supporters as hooligans.

Tricky...in what way is the EU - for all its faults - trying to create a united Europe in any way comparable with Hitler and the Nazis attempting a military invasion of Europe and the demonisation and ultimate destruction of one particular race/creed of people?
Seems to me your paranoia and disregard for the truth knows no bounds.

I knew you'd ive in.

My jibe was on the same level as Swales. He has just called Boris J and his party in the same as Hitlers climb to power. I get what he means, but is it really?

I can say the same of the EU. The Nazi's slowly eroded away the class/democratic/political decision making inside Germany. Until one party made all the rules and policy of that nation. The EU is doing exactly the same. Now I'm not being as paranoia induced as you are implying. The similarities are there. In no way am I suggesting the EU is about to go on the rampage across the world either.

Swale just compared our PM with Hitler. I see his point.
I compared the EU with Hitlers nazi party.
The simularities are there, but you choose to ignore one, yet berate the other.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Both led by Germans rA, although the EU is more subtle, its the sort of stealth invasion that is more difficult to resist. Making us think we want to become part of the greater Germany, oops I mean EU, so we fall into line without wasting money on bullets, bombs and tanks.

Only history will tell whether the greater EU will then turn on particular sectors of itself, but the chances are high that they will. In USA years of slavery and oppression of the blacks, in USSR demonisation of too many sub cultures to name, in China /( and Cambodia - same philosophy) oppression of intellectuals: just to look at the superpowers that the EU seeks to become one of. Who will be their scapegoat? Probably us if we ultimately stay - those evil Brits who tried to tear us apart

[ramAnag]

I knew you'd ive in.

My jibe was on the same level as Swales. He has just called Boris J and his party in the same as Hitlers climb to power. I get what he means, but is it really?

I can say the same of the EU. The Nazi's slowly eroded away the class/democratic/political decision making inside Germany. Until one party made all the rules and policy of that nation. The EU is doing exactly the same. Now I'm not being as paranoia induced as you are implying. The similarities are there. In no way am I suggesting the EU is about to go on the rampage across the world either.

Swale just compared our PM with Hitler. I see his point.
I compared the EU with Hitlers nazi party.
The simularities are there, but you choose to ignore one, yet berate the other.

You made a point...a daft one imo...I responded.
The point being raised is probably about dictatorship. Hitler was a dictator...by suspending Parliament in order to get his own way Johnson is acting like a dictator...and I have a degree of sympathy with your belief that the EU is insufficiently democratic which can be confused with dictatorship.
Beyond that there is no comparison to be made between the Nazis, either in terms of aims or method, and the EU...again imo.

So many ifs, assumptions and coincidences GP.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"So many ifs, assumptions and coincidences GP...."

Sometimes there are so many coincidences that they cease to be coincidences but rather realities. Can you really claim that oppression of, discrimination against and at the extreme, elimination of minorities are not a recurring feature of "superpowers/superstates"?

The three I mentioned are current - but the Romans weren't averse to wiping out opposition, particularly at a religious level etc, eg Christianity; the British Empire was hardly a tolerant one, particularly in East Africa.

You can hide behind your belief that these are all coincidences if you will, but I'm not fooled. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, as Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton would say:

...........coincidentally, Acton is very close to / historically part of Brentford, where we are playing on Saturday. Maybe you are right after all

[Trickytreesreds]

Damned right Geoff.

Depends on the person and their rose tinted glasses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB4o5n2EGyA

[swaledale]

Both led by Germans rA, although the EU is more subtle, its the sort of stealth invasion that is more difficult to resist. Making us think we want to become part of the greater Germany, oops I mean EU, so we fall into line without wasting money on bullets, bombs and tanks.

Only history will tell whether the greater EU will then turn on particular sectors of itself, but the chances are high that they will. In USA years of slavery and oppression of the blacks, in USSR demonisation of too many sub cultures to name, in China /( and Cambodia - same philosophy) oppression of intellectuals: just to look at the superpowers that the EU seeks to become one of. Who will be their scapegoat? Probably us if we ultimately stay - those evil Brits who tried to tear us apart

The Eu will change, evolve or even self destruct, thats the cycle of life, its clear that at the moment, society's memory re the conflicts of ideology and geopolitics that covered the years of the first and second world wars is fading, which gives opportunistic far right (and those on the far left for that matter) to present their simplistic ideologies as being the solution to current woes, such as they might be.

We have had decades of relative peace in western europe, that historically is down to the EU, because disputes and petty political in fighting is conducted in its corridors and meeting rooms, rather than on the battle field, one may argue the end result is the same in terms of power and influence, (I'd say that argument doesn't stand up but hey its a point of view) but at least the process hasn't seen millions of people killed and millions more lives shattered.

Johnson is not the problem, he is the patsy being used by undemocratic far right zealots to achieve what has been an agenda for over a decade, taking advantage of the general populations apathy and desire for simplistic solutions.